[NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
Dena
galdena at sbcglobal.net
Sat Dec 1 21:41:13 PST 2007
Hmmmm, Lisa-- maybe you misinterpreted what I wrote?? What I said was
"stupid" was the current content of the post-MSN DNP degree program (and it
appears you agree with me there)-- but I also said there was no point in
adding any CLINICAL content to it since, as you agreed, experienced NPs
already HAVE the clinical knowledge. So, in order to get the experienced MSN
prepared NPs a DNP degree, we end up with 2 years of "fluff" courses to make
up the credit hours since they're leaving out the clinical stuff WE don’t
need. It may be a move by the universities to make money (they're certainly
NOT in business to simply make the world a better place, you know!!), but
also a move to get the MSN prepared NP a DNP degree. What other content
could they add? The clinical component of the DNP degree will come in the
new 3-4 yr post Bachelors' DNP NP program that will replace the current MSN
NP programs.
Dena Galler
-----Original Message-----
From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
Of Lisa Meyer
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:45 PM
To: NP Info
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
But it's not stupid. These DNP degrees need to have clinical content. I
think I'm damn good at what I do (and humble!) but I don't believe that
there is nothing anyone can teach me clinically. And more than furthering
my knowledge, it is a PR move. The residency thing is critical. The
current DNP programs that I have research are NOT offering clinical content.
It is more of the same old, tired, research/theory/role prep. that has
already been done ad nauseum in MSN programs. It is a move by universities
to make money.
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dena" <galdena at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NP Info'" <npinfo at nurse.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
>I think most programs are similar in content-- isn't that part of the
> process for accreditation of the programs? And the number of clinical
> hours
> for NP certification has to be met by the educational institutions as
> well.
> What is sorely needed in the current NP educational programs is a one year
> residency and hopefully that will be met when the NP programs change from
> the current 2 yr to the 3-4 yr model of the DNP program. Believe me,
> nursing
> is NEVER going to do away with the fluff theory, role transition, and
> research (I've spent MANY years hoping for it to happen and I've finally
> had
> to accept that the garbage is here to stay <G>) so the only thing that can
> happen is to expand the program in length to include everything needed to
> make us better prepared for the real world after graduation. I was told by
> my instructors that my NP program only prepared me for a 2 yr "on the job
> residency" and that they never promised I'd be ready to practice
> competently, and definitely NOT independently, after completion of the
> program. Luckily, my first job was a wonderful relaxed learning experience
> with a wonderful MD but, in looking back, it's still a wonder my patients
> ever survived my "learning" experience <G>.
>
> I think the expanded DNP program will turn out to be a great thing for NP
> students and they should be much better prepared to step into the NP role
> afterwards and have much greater confidence than I ever did. I think this
> 2
> yr MSN-to-DNP thing is total crap (more role transition, business, health
> care policies, etc) but guess they had to make us do something in order to
> earn the degree since teaching us clinical stuff at this stage was kind of
> stupid.
> Dena Galler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
> Of Lisa Meyer
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:46 PM
> To: NP Info
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
>
> After reading Dena's post, I will agree that the current 2 year NP program
> is NOT long enough to teach everything one needs to know to practice.
> BUT:
> my program had plenty of theory, role preparation and research. What was
> lacking was enough clinical content. I would love to hear from other
> people
>
> what they thought might have been lacking from their programs--perhaps
> mine
> was very unusual? Did you have lots of clinical content and practice
> hours,
>
> but yearned for more research and role prep? Please weigh in.
>
> Lisa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dena" <galdena at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NP Info'" <npinfo at nurse.net>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:33 PM
> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
>
>
>> Dave--
>> I think you are missing a big point about DNP programs... one of the main
>> reasons for the DNP degree in the first place was that the traditional 2
>> yr
>> NP degree programs have been found to not be long enough to include all
>> one
>> now needs to know in order to practice after graduation. The programs
>> would
>> have to be longer to provide the newest in evidence-based practice as
>> well
>> as adding on a clinical residency to the already established curriculum
>> of
>> basic clinical courses, theory, research, role transition, etc. Add that
>> extra time on to the current two year NP program and you would be looking
>> at
>> a 3-4 year program-- way more time, credit, and effort than needed for a
>> MSN
>> degree. So, in keeping up with the amount of time it takes to earn a
>> PharmD,
>> PT doctorate, and 4 years of post-grad Med school, the nursing faculty
>> group
>> decided to expand the NP program in length and make it a doctoral degree
>> instead. Why should we put in 3-4 yrs of post-grad education for a MSN
>> when
>> other professions were coming out with "doctors"???
>>
>> There will be TWO types of DNP programs available. What we are seeing now
>> is
>> the 2 yr MSN-to-DNP program for the MSN prepared NP who wants to go back
>> and
>> get the extra degree. Those will be the "experienced NP" with the
>> doctorate
>> degrees. There is no clinical component to those programs because we have
>> already had that part in our MSN programs and, supposedly, have developed
>> our clinical skills already in our years of practice. What can they teach
>> us
>> at this point when it comes to clinical stuff?
>>
>> Then there will be the 4 yr (or whatever) DNP programs that will be
>> post-Bachelors (hopefully BSN but I have little faith in the integrity of
>> nursing schools <G>) programs for those who want to BECOME NPs. This
>> program
>> SHOULD include the basic clinical stuff that we currently receive in our
>> MSN
>> NP programs as well as all the extra non-clinical stuff of the current
>> post-NP DNP program and, hopefully, allow for a clinical residency. The 2
>> yr
>> MSN programs for NPs will become obsolete.
>>
>> I agree that it's going to take a whole hell of a lot more than a piece
>> of
>> paper that says I'm a "doctor" to make the medical community sit up
>> straighter, look me in the eyes, and clasps me to their bosom as an equal
>> and valued colleague. That is a LONG way from happening-- if ever! I
>> personally never plan to use the title "Dr", the DNP degree will not
>> change
>> my clinical practice at all, I live in the "collaborative" state of CA so
>> I
>> won't be immediately awarded independent practice (if ever <sigh>), but
>> rumor has it I might make a two-step pay increase at my job in the VA--
>> although then I'm maxed out with no further increases possible <G>. So
>> what
>> will I gain?????? As for the words of encouragement "So many doors will
>> open up to you once you have your DNP" I'd just like to say that, at my
>> age
>> and this point in my career, that unless those doors open to a
>> retirement
>> Shangri-La or to a huge secret bank vault with my name on tax-free
>> millions,
>> I just as soon keep the doors shut.
>>
>> Dena Galler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
>> Behalf
>> Of David Mittman
>> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:39 AM
>> To: NPinfo
>> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
>>
>>
>> Judy:
>>
>> Just to know you better, what state do you practice in?
>> I have so many thoughts. Being in state and national medical politics for
>> over 30 years has made me think (a pleasant surprise). This is long post
>> and
>> I hope it will further the conversation.
>>
>> I believe it will be harder to get independent practice in many states
>> exactly because that article in Forbes said that the DNP is equivalent
>> training to physicians. Let me explain why as I think there are a number
>> of
>> reasons that come to mind. I know a few people in DNP programs and it is
>> generally not clinical at all. So where are these people getting the
>> equivalent training? No one said anything about outcomes not being
>> similar
>> (we still need more studies on that, but most people believe it) it was
>> education being equivalent, remember it's the hours put into the years
>> of
>> clerkship, internship and residency that some are now saying is equal.
>> Dos set up the exact same training, same hours, same classes from the day
>> you make DO school until the day you practice. As you said because of
>> this
>> the degrees are now interchanable.
>>
>> Why do you think the nurses who go into the DNP programs will be
>> experienced NPs with years of experience? As the months turn into years,
>> if
>> they succeed to any degree, they will get applicants who want to be
>> doctors
>> right out of BSN programs (just like NP programs now do). Even in 2008
>> would
>> most graduates use the title doctor when they graduate unless prohibited
>> by
>> legislation? Your not using the title is personal but I expect that as
>> time
>> goes on almost all will. One has to accept some confusion and patient
>> misunderstandings and sword rattling from many of the other professions
>> (but
>> that in itself is OK and the price to pay for change).
>> The larger more ominous question is what's going to happen in NY,
>> California, Florida and North Carolina
>> (which has 35% of all NPs in the nation) when you open up the practice
>> acts
>> for NP practice to reflect the independent practice DNPs MUST by it's
>> professional definition have? Those 4 states are all collaborative
>> practice
>> states where there would be huge, expensive, drag out
>> fights for this type of revolutionary change. Has anyone consulted with
>> the
>> state orgs on how they feel this opening and clearly ensuing legislative
>> battle would effect the "regular" NPs.? Will they want to pay for these?
>> If
>> not, who will? I fear things could slide backward very quickly. Don't
>> forget
>> NPs have never before said things like they have equivalent training to
>> physicians. That will make them fight much harder as they have much more
>> to
>> lose. If org. medicine can show this is untrue, it could backfire. Don't
>> forget saying things like that are now public record from a pretty high
>> up
>> nursing leader (and it can't be taken back).
>> We have always said that our training (PAs also) was MUCH more than
>> adequate
>> to do what we were doing and we all have made the argument that MDs are
>> over
>> trained to provide primary care. Let's not forget people understood that.
>> Remember the old
>> "you don't have to learn how to be an astronaut to fly a plane". People
>> understood that. That is why NPs and PAs have flourished, because we
>> proved
>> beyond a shadow of a doubt that US regular pilots had the training it
>> took
>> to fly the plane.
>> Now it seems nursing is saying that being the astronaut is the only way
>> to
>> go and, yes, the pilots were inadequately trained. Or else why the need
>> for
>> the mass exodus to the doctorate? Can anyone show this? If not, is it
>> just
>> professional ego? Don't forget the docs don't much care about the PTs,
>> OTs,
>> and PharmDs as they are no threat to their daily practice.
>> Is there any evidence based research that shows DNP grads are
>> significantly
>> better than Masters prepared NPs (or for that matter, certificate
>> prepared
>> NPs)? Those are serious questions that will be asked by the health policy
>> makers (especially in legislative circles), when you say your training is
>> equivalent.
>> Also NPs and PAs were allowed to practice and to be very
>> autonomous/independent because our training was shorter, less expensive,
>> and
>> most importantly
>> we could get clinicians to specialties and geographic areas of need that
>> a
>> State region or specialty might have. Legislators heard that and
>> understood
>> it. Employers heard that and understood that. The whole retail clinic
>> idea
>> is based on NOT NEEDEDING A DOCTOR LEVEL; CLLINICIAN on site. Will
>> doctorate
>> level trained people who are at the "level of a physician" be happy
>> working
>> at CVS? If the doctorate prepares
>> one for policy and research, it will also be much harder to do those
>> tasks
>> when you are in a town of 1,500. Will there be the same problems the docs
>> face about few going to inner city and especially rural areas (again a
>> place
>> we already shine)?
>> I think there also has to be the recognition that NPs (and again PAs)
>> feel
>> the frustration of having many of the skills that physicians have but not
>> being recognized as "physicians". Being a DNP won't make you a physician,
>> so
>> might these frustrations even multiply?
>> I would rather see a full year of 80 hour a week residency (yes, quit
>> your
>> job and mirror the physician residency) added to a few didactic classes
>> and
>> one could then be a Doctor and graduate with a clinical doctorate that
>> might
>> be a step up from the Master's prepared NP and PA and might have a new
>> name
>> (Health or Medical Practitioner) who goes out and establishes a new
>> professional pathway. The only Dr. PA program from Baylor will require at
>> least a one year residency solely in Emergency Medicine after ER practice
>> for a number of years. Was that model considered for the DNP? That would
>> make more sense and still not deny those who believe that you don't have
>> to
>> be an astronaut to be a pilot-which I still think is the saving grace of
>> both professions.
>> Just my thoughts on an obviously very complicated situation. Do not mean
>> to
>> denigrate anyone or their beliefs and actions.
>> Dave
>>
>> On 12/1/07 12:28 PM, "jabphd83 at aol.com" <jabphd83 at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I introduce myself as Judy Jones, nurse practitioner.? I sign my records
>> "Judy
>>> Jones APN,C, PhD."
>>> My cards, which I give to all my patients, state these credentials.? I
>> want my
>>> patients to know that they have received excellent care from a NURSE.? I
>> want
>>> to leave them with the impression of what a NURSE can do. Like you
>> Stephanie,
>>> I have been working as an NP for a very long time and have lived through
>> many
>>> changes in nursing, some good and some not so good. I believe we, as a
>>> profession,?have gained momentum and I want to? help move "us" in
>> a?forward
>>> direction toward independent practice.?
>>>
>>> You are so right about $$$ and lobbyists.? That is why we ALL need to
>>> join
>> our
>>> professional associations and professional PAC groups and support
>>> nursing
>>> lobbyists to espouse our credentials and expertise where it counts ---
>>> to
>>> those determining where health care dollars are spent.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the spirited dialogue.?
>>>
>>> Judy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Stephanie Walker <stephanie2u at optonline.net>
>>> To: NP Info <npinfo at nurse.net>
>>> Sent: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:24 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] DNP and R*E*S*P*E*C*T
>>>
>>>
>>> Judy, I don't know what your last name is, but let's say it's Jones. Are
>> you
>>> calling yourself Dr. Judy Jones? Are you patients saying their primary
>> care
>>> provider is Dr. Jones? (I am looking at your statement "Many
>>> legislators,
>> TV
>>> commentators, consumers etc?won't go to "just a nurse" for advice when
>> they
>>> can go to a DOCTOR. This term connotates authority and knowledge.? But
>>> if
>> the
>>> Nurse?also had a Doctorate in their chosen field, then maybe the public
>> will
>>> begin to believe that both professions have expertise."?
>>> ?
>>> I don't think the answer is to start calling ourselves Dr. That seems
>> almost
>>> like carrying out a deception. Nor are we RN nurses. We're nurse
>>> practitioners.?
>>> ?
>>> I've been an NP for 25 years. I find that many more people know what an
>>> NP
>> is
>>> today than did even 10 years ago. But--whether the public knows about
>>> NPs
>> is a
>>> completely separate issue from our practice issues and our legislative
>>> issues.?
>>> ?
>>> The public perception is irrelevant when we are talking about funding,
>> money,
>>> political power, practice legislation, etc. The public doesn't have any
>> role,
>>> or any power, in these areas. If all your patients wrote a letter
>>> telling
>> your
>>> legislator how wonderful you are, it would not make any difference,
>>> unless
>>> they threatened to not vote for him/her the next election and there were
>>> enough of them to change the outcome by so doing. Legislators are not
>>> "the
>>> public." They are politicians who are paid off by the AMA and state
>> medical
>>> groups to act in their interests, and willingly do so.?
>>> ?
>>> Stephanie Walker, FNP?
>>> ?
>>> On Nov 30, 2007, at 2:53 PM, jabphd83 at aol.com wrote:?
>>> ?
>>>> ?
>>>> Stephanie, I agree that $$$$? speaks volumnes and the?AMA has lots >
>>>> more
>>>> money than the ANA, yet there are MANY more RNs than MDs in > the US.?
>> MDs
>>>> join their national and state associations and support > them so that
>> they
>>>> can lobby the issues that may come up that could > eat into the MDs
>> pocket,
>>>> such as NP and PA practice.?? RNs need to > learn that they will never
>> get
>>>> far on legislative issues unless we > support our organizations to
>>>> lobby
>> for
>>>> our needs.?
>>>> ?
>>>> The doctorate in nursing will help?negate the AMA's argument that?> MDs
>> are
>>>> better educated and trained than NPs. We do not need to get > this
>>>> degree
>> to
>>>> impress anyone.? We need a doctoral degree as a > terminal degree to
>>>> help?equal the health care playing field.? Many > legislators, TV
>>>> commentators, consumers etc?won't go to "just a > nurse" for advice
>>>> when
>> they
>>>> can go to a DOCTOR. This term > connotates authority and knowledge.?
>>>> But
>> if
>>>> the Nu On 12/1/07 12:45 PM, "jabphd83 at aol.com" <jabphd83 at aol.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shelby,
>>> Thanks for the history. In my state our professional organization
>> threatened
>>> a "restraint of trade" suit against the administration of a hospital
>> medical
>>> staff. The medical staff board told their members that they would not
>> support
>>> their practice in a lawsuit if they utilized NPs hired by the hospital
>>> to
>> do
>>> admitting H & Ps when pts were admitted and the MD was not coming in
>>> immediately to do the H&P. The medical staff administration backed down
>> and
>>> now those MDs that want to use the NPs, do so.
>>>
>>> $$$ and legal action make people take notice.
>>> Judy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Shelby Havens <shelbyhavens at hotmail.com>
>>> To: NP Info <npinfo at nurse.net>
>>> Sent: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 7:39 am
>>> Subject: [NPInfo] DO vs MD (was Mary Mundinger)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> tephanie:
>>>
>>> he osteopaths filed a class action lawsuit against the MDs, alleging
>>> anti-trust
>>> r restraint of trade. They won the battle but lost the way, so to speak.
>> They
>>> ad to agree to fulfill the same educational requirements as the MDs.
>>> They
>> have
>>> o complete the exact same residency programs as MDs. So essentially,
>>> they
>> are
>>> Ds but with different letters after their names (DO). They are MD
>>> clones.
>>>
>>> est Regards,
>>>
>>> helby Havens, ARNP
>>> Love is an act of endless forgiveness.~ -- Peter Ustinov No trees were
>> harmed
>>> n the sending of this message and a very large number of electrons were
>> asked
>>> heir permission to be terribly inconvenienced. And a party was thrown
>>> for
>> them
>>> fterwards for being really cool about it. > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007
>> 22:04:27
>>> 0500> From: stephanie2u at optonline.net> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Mary
>> Mundinger>
>>> o: npinfo at nurse.net> > Can you give a more detailed history of what the
>> turf
>>> ar was, and > how it was resolved? Was there really any similarity to
>>> our
>>> ituation > as nurse practitioners?> > As far as I know, osteopaths have
>> pretty
>>> uch the same training as > MDs now. The ostepathic manipulation part is
>> very
>>> uch de-emphasized.> > Anyway, if we are good enough now to be primary
>>> care
>>> roviders, why > do we need to improve our training (and get a DNP)? That
>> would
>>> e > admitting that we AREN'T adequately trained. What is the logic
>>> here?>
>>>
>>> tephanie Walker, FNP> > > > > On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:04 PM, Lisa Meyer
>> wrote:>
>>> >
>>> Yes, the real issue IS money, but DO's were able to fend off this > >
>>> same
>>> urf war over money by showing that their level of training > > was at
>> least as
>>> igorous.> >> > Lisa> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie
>> Walker" >
>>> <stephanie2u at optonline.net>> > To: "NP Info" <npinfo at nurse.net>> > Sent:
>>> riday, November 30, 2007 1:55 PM> > Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Mary
>>> Mundinger>
>>>>
>>> >>
>>>> As I read over your statement it is certainly implying that our > >>
>> current
>>> evel of training is criticized. The fact that training > >> is brought
>>> up
>> is a
>>> ed herring that I refuse to be taken in by, > >> though. There is a lot
>>> of
>>> moke and mirrors here, to use a > >> different metaphor.> >>> >> A DNP
>> will
>>> not
>>> e good enough for politicians because the it is > >> not addressing the
>> real
>>> ssue. To be considered the equivalent of > >> an MD there is no option
>>> but
>> to
>>> e an MD yourself. No kind of > >> nurse or PA, no matter what their
>> training,
>>> s going to ever meet > >> the approval of MDs/the AMA, or the people
>>> they
>>> nfluence. That's > >> because the real issue is money, not training.>
>>> >>>
>>>> A
>>> NP and independent practice are totally unrelated. A DNP and > >>
>>> ompetence/excellence in practice are totally unrelated as well. > >> A
>>> DNP
>> and
>>> reater personal income are unrelated. What else matters?> >>> >>
>>> Stephanie
>>> alker, FNP> >>> >>> >> On Nov 29, 2007, at 9:03 PM, jabphd83 at aol.com
>> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephanie I did not state that anyone criticized Masters > >>>
>>> repared NPs.? I stated:> >>> "If we want to compete for health care
>> dollars
>>> and
>>> ithstand the?> >>> criticism of our "lack of training and education"
>>> from
>>> ther?> >>> health professionals, we must have similar educational
>> endpoints?>
>>>>> ( ie: a clinical doctorate like MDs or PharmDs or PsyDs) or we?> >>>
>> will
>>> ontinue to be seen as second class providers by congress,?> >>> health
>>> nsurers, other professionals, and consumers. "> >>>> >>> As nursing
>> competes
>>> or health care dollars in Washington and in > >>> the individual states,
>> those
>>> hat lobby for other health care > >>> providers such as the AMA, stress
>>> hat?NPs and RNs lack?the > >>> education and training?when compared to
>> MDs,
>>> DOs
>>> tc.?and > >>> therefore, cannot be independent providers. ?The
>> legislators, >
>>>>> most of whom are unaware of the differences in the educational > >>>
>>> reparation of RNs, NPs, DNPs?etc, rely on information received > >>>
>>> from
>>> arious sources including lobbyists.> >>>> >>> I have testified on
>>> various
>>> bills
>>> nd the AMA lobby always has > >>> the same mantra "NPs don't have the
>>> education
>>> r training of an > >>> MD and therefore cannot be independent".?
>>> Although
>> NP
>>> nd RN > >>> groups meet with legislators to explain what we do, there
>>> are
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> nly so many we can see and our organizations have only so much > >>>
>>> money
>> to
>>> pend on lobbyists. (This is why we should all belong > >>> to our
>> professional
>>> rganizations because of the work they do > >>> for us to defend and
>>> expand
>> our
>>> ractice)> >>>> >>> We, as a profession, need to be able to show that we
>> are >
>>>>> educated with a clinical?terminal degree?like MDs or PsyDs etc. > >>>
>>>>> Is
>>> his being politically correct ---Maybe.? But if it gets us > >>> (the
>>> rofession) what we need to practice as independent > >>> providers, then
>> in
>>> the
>>> nd it will be worth the effort.> >>>> >>> Stephanie, we are all nurses
>> first,
>>> s well as NPs.? Our basic > >>> nursing education and practice as an RN
>> gives
>>> s the basis for > >>> our NP practice.? NPs practice under their state
>> nurse
>>> ractice > >>> act which also includes RN practice. Yes, our practice is
>> more >
>>>>> expansive than an RN, but the basis of our practice is also the > >>>
>>> ractice of nursing: evaluation, communication, education, > >>> advocacy
>> to
>>> ame a few.? Our nursing background is what makes > >>> our NP practice
>>> unique.>
>>>>>>>>> We are all entitled to our opinions.??I propose that we, as > >>>
>>> embers of the nursing profession, need to?put aside?our own > >>>
>> individual
>>> genda and look at the big picture for the future of > >>> the
>>> profession.?
>> If
>>> he?nurses before us did not?envision a > >>> more independent future, we
>> would
>>> till be standing up when an > >>> MD entered the room.? Our?predecessors
>>> tressed education and > >>> training to expand our practice. It is now
>>> our
>>> turn
>>> o move the > >>> profession forward and maybe..... the clinical
>>> doctorate
>> will
>>>>>> give us the push? we need to be seen as independent providers by >
>>>>>> >>>
>> the
>>> ealth care? stakeholders.?> >>>> >>> Judy??> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>> -----Original
>>> essage-----> >>> From: stephanie2u at optonline.net> >>> To: NP Info
>>> npinfo at nurse.net>> >>> Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 7:36 pm> >>> Subject: Re:
>>> NPInfo] Mary Mundinger> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Kindly explain, re: your
>> paragraph
>>> 5 below, exactly who in > >>> Congress or which> >>> funding agencies,
>>> nsurers, etc. have criticized Masters- > >>> prepared NP's as> >>>
>>> ndereducated and have promised to pay us as well as they pay > >>> MDs,
>>> if
>>> only
>>> e> >>> get our DNP??? (all my question marks are intentional : ))> >>>>
>>>>>
>>> lso, we are not in the same situation "nursing" is in. Nursing, > >>>
>> after
>>> ll, is> >>> largely composed of RNs with associate degrees.> >>>> >>>
>>> The
>> rest
>>> f this post is my comment on RN Nursing (a different > >>> occupation
>> from>
>>> >>>
>>> P, except if the NP is moonlighting as a RN; they are not > >>>
>>> nterchangeable> >>> terms):> >>>> >>> The RN profession of nursing (or
>> some of
>>> ts leaders, versus the > >>> vast majority> >>> of RNs) has definitely
>>> had
>> an
>>> ssue with entry of practice but > >>> it is irrelevant> >>> to NPs, NP
>>> alaries, and most funding issues that we care about > >>> or that
>>> affect>
>>>>>
>>> s.> >>>> >>> Entry of practice may be irrelevant for RNs as well, as >
>>> >>>
>>> ospitals really don't> >>> care, nor do most employers of nurses. Nurses
>> will
>>> till be > >>> overworked if they> >>> get BSNs or PhD's. They will
>> certainly
>>> ot get any more respect. > >>> Not to mention> >>> that many nurses are
>> not up
>>> o the academic demands of anything > >>> beyond an> >>> associate
>>> degree.
>> A
>>> lot
>>> f AD nurses worked their way through > >>> the AD program> >>> while
>> raising
>>> hildren and they are working to pay the bills. > >>> They don't give a>
>>>>>
>>> oot about credentials. I say this with a lot of respect for > >>> these
>>> ndividuals.> >>> They are the backbone of the profession of RN nursing.
>>> Without
>>> D > >>> nurses,> >>> patient care in hospitals would collapse all across
>> the
>>> ountry. > >>> Tinkering> >>> around with nurses' training cannot change
>> this
>>> eality.> >>>> >>> Stephanie Walker, FNP> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message
>>> ----->
>>>>> From: jabphd83 at aol.com> >>> Date: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:36 pm>
>>>>>
>>> ubject: Re: [NPInfo] Mary Mundinger> >>> To: npinfo at nurse.net> >>>> >>>>
>>> ave:??You talk about an "end degree" for the other professions,> >>>>
>>> but
>> not
>>> o in nursing.? A Pharm.D. is a clinical doctorate.? An> >>>> MD is a
>> clinical
>>> octorate.?A PsyD. is a clinical doctorate.? ?A> >>>> DNP, DrNP or DNS
>>> are
>>> linical doctorates.?? If anyone in these> >>>> professions want to do
>> serious
>>> esearch and?have major?grant> >>>> funding, they will need a Ph.D.? That
>> is
>>> why
>>> ou may see MDs and> >>>> PharmDs with a PhD as part of their
>>> credentials.?
>>> cademically> >>>> speaking, a PhD is the terminal degree in all
>> professions.?
>>> any> >>>> professionals do not need this degree to practice clinically
>>> or>
>>> >>>>
>>> o be clinical faculty, but to do scientific research and> >>>> receive
>> major
>>> IH grants and lead teams in national clinical> >>>> trials or to be
>> tenured in
>>> research intense university, the> >>>> Ph.D. is the way to go.> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> cademically,the Ph.D. is the end degree for all professions,?> >>>>
>> including
>>> ursing.?> >>>>> >>>> Nursing came late to this conclusion and 25 - 30
>> +?yrs
>>> go,> >>>> nurses obtained doctorates in other disciplines until?the>
>>> >>>>
>>> rofession?concluded that along with a shared body of knowledge> >>>>
>>> from
>> many
>>> isciplines, ?nursing had a unique body of knowledge> >>>> that would
>> support a
>>> hD in nursing.? Because nursing is a> >>>> practice discipline with a
>>> olid?theoretical base, many nurses> >>>> opted for a theoretically based
>>> ducation with? clinical> >>>> application?versus?theoretical development
>> and
>>> asic science> >>>> research.? ?That is why?nursing first went with a
>> clinical>
>>>>>> doctorate such as a DNS, ND and then DNP.? These clinical> >>>>
>> doctorates
>>> re evolving, but?they are all clinical doctorates> >>>> that
>>> emphasize?clinical
>>> pplication built on a strong> >>>> theoretical ?base.> >>>>> >>>> What
>>> we
>> are
>>> eeing is the evolution of a profession, with all> >>>> it's growing
>>> pains,
>> and
>>> ometimes false starts.? But nursing is> >>>> moving forward and we are
>> setting
>>> urselves up to compete with> >>>> other professions - practice and basic
>>> cience alike.> >>>>> >>>> If we want to compete for health care dollars?
>> and
>>> ithstand the> >>>> criticism of our "lack of training and education"
>>> from
>>> ther> >>>> health professionals, we must have similar educational
>> endpoints>
>>>>>> ( ie: a clinical doctorate like MDs or PharmDs or PsyDs) or we> >>>>
>> will
>>> ontinue to be seen as second?class providers by congress,> >>>> health
>>> nsurers, other professionals, and consumers.> >>>>> >>>> I realize that
>> you
>>> are
>>> PA and may not have the?knowledge of> >>>> nursing's history, but it is
>>> a
>>> istory worth noting.? PAs are a> >>>> much younger profession than
>>> nursing
>> and
>>> he lessons learned by> >>>> nursing, good and bad, may be something PAs
>> should
>>> ake note.??> >>>>> >>>> Both professions know we are "good" and how well
>> we do
>>> ur> >>>> jobs.? But we have to get this message to the legislators, big>
>>>>>>
>>> usiness, insurers and the consumers.? To do this, we must> >>>> "prove"
>>> we
>>> have
>>> he knowledge and credentials to do what we say> >>>> we do as
>>> independent
>>> rofessionals.? In today's world a> >>>> doctorate is the academic
>> credential
>>> hat these groups "first"> >>>> look?for before they actually see what
>>> you
>> can
>>> o. The academic> >>>> credential is the proverbial "foot in the door" to
>> gain
>>> ntry> >>>> and then the?opportunity to prove we?deserve equal standing
>> with>
>>>>>> other health care providers.> >>>>> >>>> I am a practicing NP who is
>>> olitically active, a faculty> >>>> member, and a researcher.? I have
>>> also
>>> ontinually gone back to> >>>> school to get the expertise and/or
>> credential I
>>> eeded to move> >>>> forward in my profession and reach my goals.? At
>>> times
>> I
>>> ave> >>>> gone back to school "kicking and screaming" because I thought
>> my>
>>>>>> 25 yrs of experience as an NP "should count for something".?> >>>>
>> However,
>>> must admit that I always learned something in school> >>>> and it always
>>> pened up new avenues to explore.> >>>>> >>>> Individual NPs and PAs may
>> decide
>>> hey do not need a doctorate> >>>> to reach their individual goals
>> or?enhance
>>> heir practice and> >>>> that is OK.? But, as a profession, nursing needs
>> to
>>> ompete on> >>>> equal footing with other members of the health care team
>> and
>>> o> >>>> be viewed as equals by all the stakeholders, we need the> >>>>
>>> academic
>>> redentials.??The clinical doctorate contributes to> >>>> nursings'
>>> ability
>> to
>>> ompete?on an equal playing field.> >>>> Judy> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>> ----Original Message-----> >>>> From: David Mittman> >>>> To: NPinfo>
>>> >>>>
>>> ent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:47 am> >>>> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Mary
>>> Mundinger>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed: Point would be that the below are all different
>>> rofessions> >>>> so they can> >>>> not have the same credential.> >>>>
>> Nursing
>>> s the same profession and what the person pointed out> >>>> was that a>
>>>>>>
>>> harmacist would become a PharmD as the end degree in pharmacy> >>>> and
>>> a
>> doc
>>> n> >>>> MD or DO, nursing does not have a recognized end degree.> >>>>
>> Dave>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/29/07 11:33 AM, "Eric Doerfler" > project.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Psychologists seem every bit as fractured to me. Here in PA>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>> ou can be> >>>>> licensed as a PhD or PsyD. Clinical social workers can
>> be>
>>>>>> licensed, and so> >>>>> can others I think (although they require a
>>> sychologist> >>>> "supervisor"--hey,> >>>>> wait a minute...!). CNSs can
>>> ractice as unsuprvised> >>>> therapists. Anyway, I> >>>>> may have some
>> tiny
>>> etails wrong (I'm not in that business)> >>>> but my point is> >>>>>
>>> that
>>> urses aren't the only profession that can be accused of> >>>>
>> experimenting>
>>> nd having a polyglot of credentials.> >>>>> e.d.> >>>>>> >>>>>
>> -----Original
>>> essage-----> >>>>> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-> >>>>
>>> ounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> >>>>> Of Havens, Shelby> >>>>> Sent:
>> Thursday,
>>> ovember 29, 2007 9:36 AM> >>>>> To: NP Info> >>>>> Subject: RE: [NPInfo]
>> Mary
>>> undinger> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Well, other healthcare professions create
>> their
>>> wn doctoral> >>>> degrees, so why> >>>>> shouldn't we? However, the
>>> other
>>> rofessions don't seem quite> >>>> so fractured> >>>>> to me. For
>>> instance,
>>> sychologists can earn a clinical> >>>> doctorate called a> >>>>> "PsyD"
>>> degree,
>>> nd pharmacists can get a doctoral degree> >>>> called a "PharmD".>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> 've seen DSN, PhD, DNP, ND, and now DrNP for doctoral degrees> >>>> in
>>> ursing.> >>>>> What next? Some more clusters of letters that make no
>>> sense
>> to>
>>>>>> anyone, and> >>>>> without any standardized curricula across the
>> programs?
>>>>>>>> think we've got> >>>>> quite enough of that already.> >>>>>> >>>>>
>> Best
>>> egards,> >>>>>> >>>>> Shelby Havens, ARNP> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>
>>> ----Original Message-----> >>>>> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net
>>> mailto:npinfo-> >>>> bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> >>>>> Of Dena> >>>>>
>> Sent:
>>> ednesday, November 28, 2007 9:56 PM> >>>>> To: 'NP Info'> >>>>> Subject:
>> RE:
>>> NPInfo] Mary Mundinger> >>>>>> >>>>> Isn't the "DrNP" degree what
>>> Columbia
>>> (the
>>> niversity-- not> >>>> the country )> >>>>> is calling their clinical
>> doctorate
>>> egree??? See, already no> >>>> one can come> >>>>> to a consensus re:
>>> what
>> the
>>> egree should be called!! Another> >>>> thing to worry> >>>>> about with
>> the
>>> DNP
>>> egree is that some schools are opening it> >>>> to not just> >>>>> NPs
>>> but
>> to
>>> ll other "Advanced Practice Degree" nurses-- or> >>>> basically any>
>>> >>>>>
>>> urse with a Masters degree. So, what started out as an entry> >>>> level
>>> linical> >>>>> doctorate degree for NPs is already in danger of being>
>>>>>>
>>> astardized. I've> >>>>> even heard that some programs are talking about
>>> opening
>>> heir> >>>> DNP programs> >>>>> to those with Masters degrees in other
>> fields--
>>> ike those MSN> >>>> programs that> >>>>> take in anyone with a Bachelors
>> in
>>> ANY
>>> ield. Also, I now of> >>>> at least one> >>>>> school that is already
>> thinking
>>> f a DNP-to-PhD program-- they> >>>> are already> >>>>> basically saying
>> that
>>> he DNP will NOT ever be considered a> >>>> terminal degree.> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>> Such
>>> crock!!!> >>>>> Dena Galler> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -----Original
>>> essage-----> >>>>> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-> >>>>
>>> ounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> >>>>> Of Shelby Havens> >>>>> Sent:
>> Wednesday,
>>> ovember 28, 2007 6:18 PM> >>>>> To: NP Info> >>>>> Subject: RE: [NPInfo]
>> Mary
>>> undinger> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I read the bios of the nurse
>>> practitioners
>>> ho are with CAPNA.> >>>> What is a> >>>>> "DrNP" degree?> >>>>>> >>>>>
>>> egards,> >>>>>> >>>>> Shelby Havens, ARNP > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007
>> 00:00:54
>>> 0000> From:> >>>>> stephanie2u at optonline.net> To: npinfo at nurse.net>
>> Subject:>
>>>>>> [NPInfo] Mary> >>>>> Mundinger> > Calif NP is on a roll today : )> >
>> Mary>
>>>>>> Mundinger's bio is> >>>>> Mundinger> > here> >>>>> on the website of
>> CAPNA,
>>> he practice associated (not sure how> >>>> loosely) with> >>>>> Columbia
>> U:>>
>>>>>> http://www.nursing.columbia.edu/CAPNA/practitioners.html> > She>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>> was
>>> n the faculty of my NP program, right about the time she> >>>> wrote
>>> her>
>>> >>>>>
>>> ook, Autonomy in Nursing. That was more than 25 years ago and> >>>> she
>> still>
>>>>>>> looks exactly the same (I started out younger than her and now> >>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>> eem to be> >>>>> older than her--how did that happen?)> > Stephanie
>>> Walker
>>> NP>> >>>>> -----> >>>>> Original Message -----> From: Calif NP > Date:
>>> ednesday,> >>>> November 28, 2007> >>>>> 2:29 pm> Subject: Re: [NPInfo]
>> Who
>>> ill Be Your Doctor? Here> >>>> are the> >>>>> requirements for NPs in
>>> the
>>> State
>>> f New York - which, in part> >>>> may explain> >>>>> why Mary O'Neil
>>> Mundinger,
>>> r.P.H. may believe NPs need more> >>>> training!> To:> >>>>>
>>> epyke at infionline.net, NP Info > > > First of all, RN Mary> >>>> O'Neil
>>> undinger,> >>>>> Dr.P.H. does NOT appear > > to be a> > NP....hmmm?> >
>> Name :>
>>>>>> MUNDINGER MARY> >>>>> O NEIL> > Address : RYE NY> > Profession :
>>> EGISTERED> >>>> PROFESSIONAL NURSING>> >>>>>> License No: 146499> > Date
>> of
>>> icensure : Not on file> > > >>>>>> Additional> >>>>> Qualification : Not
>>> pplicable in this profession> > Status :> >>>> REGISTERED> >> >>>>>
>> Registered
>>> hrough last day of : 03/10> > > > 2nd- at first> >>>> blush, (and> >>>>>
>>> ertainly not to defend Ms. > > Mundinger,RN) the> > lic.> >>>>
>> requirements
>>> to>
>>>>>>> hold oneself out as a NP in NY appear to be > > a little on> >> >>>>
>> the
>>> ight> >>>>> side? So, an academic (RN with a doctorate in Public > >>
>>> >>>>
>>> ealth such> > as> >>>>> RN Mundinger) might objectively see some room
>>> for
>>> mprovement> >>>> of> >> >>>>> standards......> > License Requirements:
>> Nurse
>>> ractitioner> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>> --> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > General Requirements> > To
>>>>>> use
>> the
>>>>>>>> title> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > "Nurse> >>>>> Practitioner"
>> in
>>> ew York State you must be> > certified.> > >> >>>>> To be> >>>>>
>>> certified
>> as
>>> a
>>> urse practitioner in New York State you must:>> >>>>>>> a..> >>>>> have
>>> a
>>> urrently registered New York State license as a > >> >>>>>
>>> RegisteredProfessional
>>> urse (RN); and> > b.. meet education> >>>> requirements> >> >>>>> A
>>> nurse
>>> ractitioner is certified to practice in a specific >> >>>>> specialty>
>>>>>>>
>>> rea.> > You may be certified in more than one specialty, but> >>>> you
>> must >
>>>>>>>>> submit a> > separate application and fee for each specialty> >>>>
>> and
>>> emonstrate> >>>>>>> that you> > have satisfied the education
>>> requirements>
>>> >>>>
>>> pecific to> >>>>>>> that >> >>>>>> specialty area.> > Current specialty
>> areas
>>> re: Acute Care, Adult> >>>>>> Health,> >>>>> College Health,> >
>>> Community
>>> ealth, Family Health,> >>>> Gerontology, Holistic> >>>>> Nursing, > >
>>> eonatology,Obstetrics/Gynecology, Oncology,> >>>> Pediatrics, > >> >>>>>
>>> alliative Care, Perinatology,> > Psychiatry, School Health, > >>>>>
>> Women's>
>>>>>>> Health.> > > > You must file an application for certification> >>>>
>> and
>>> he other> >>>>> forms> > indicated, along with the appropriate fee, to
>> the>
>>>>>> Office of the> >>>>> forms> > > >> >>>>> Professionsat the address
>>> pecified on each form. It is your > >> >>>>> responsibility to follow> >
>> up
>>> ith anyone you have asked to> >>>> send us> >>>>> material.> > > > The
>>> specific
>>> equirements for certification> >>>> are contained> >>>>> in > > Title
>>> 8,>
>>>
>>> rticle 139, Section 6910 of New York's> >>>> Education Law and> >>>>>
>>> Part
>>> >
>>> 4 of the> > Commissioner's Regulations. For> >>>> additional
>>> information>
>>> >>>>>
>>> egarding legal> > requirements for licensed professionals,> >>>> see the
>>> ection> >>>>> below on> > professional conduct.> > > > You should also
>> read>
>>>>>> the general> >>>>> licensing information > > applicable for all> >
>>> rofessions.>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>> --> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Professional Conduct> > All
>>> icensed> >>>>> practitioners must adhere to rules of professional > >>
>>>>>>
>>> onduct. The> >> >>>>> Education Law includes definitions of professional
>>> isconduct,> >>>>>> and the> >>>>> Board> > of Regents has adopted rules
>>> efining unprofessional> >>>> conduct> Board> > for> >>>>> all> >
>> professions.
>>> very licensee is also governed by a set> >>>> of laws, >> >>>>> all> >
>>> >>
>>> >>>>>
>>> ules, and> > regulations for the practice of that specific> >>>>
>> profession.>
>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> See Title 8 of the NYS Education Law and Part 29 of the Rules>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the> >>>>> Board> > of Regents for specific information.> > > >
>>> rint> >>>> copies of the> >>>>> relevant sections of the NYS Education
>> Law, >
>>> >
>>> ules of the>> >>>>> Board of> >>>>> Regents, and the Commissioner's
>>> Regulations
>>> re > > available> >>>> upon> >> >>>>> request from
>>> opforms at mail.nysed.gov
>> or
>>> 18-474-3817 ext. 320.>> >>>>>>> You are> >>>>> also encouraged to review
>> the
>>> equirements of Public > >> >>>> Health Law,> >> >>>>> Article 28 -
>> Hospitals,
>>> ection 28-03-d, Reporting Abuses of> >>>> Persons> >> >>>>> Receiving
>>> Care
>> or
>>> ervices in Residential Health Care> >>>> Facilities.> > > > > >> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------> >>>> -->
>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Education Requirements> > To> >>>>
>>>>>>> satisfy
>> the>
>>>>>>> education requirements for certification as a nurse> >> >>>>
>> practitioner,
>>> ou> >>>>> must present evidence of satisfying the > > requirements of
>>> A>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> r B or C> >>>>> below. Additionally, you must meet the requirements > >
>> for D>
>>>>>> below.> > > >> >>>>> 1.. Completion of a nurse practitioner
>>>>>> educational
>>> rogram > >> >>>> registered> by> > the New York State Education
>>> Department
>> as>
>>>>>> qualifying for > >> >>>>> certification, or> > a program determined
>>>>>> by
>> the
>>> epartment to> >>>> be equivalent> >>>>> to a > > registeredprogram,
>>> which
>> is
>>> esigned and conducted to> >>>> prepare > >> >>>>> graduates to practice
>> as> >
>>> urse practitioners.> > > > > > 2..> >>>>> Certification as a nurse
>>> practitioner
>>> y one of the > >> >>>> following national>> >>>>>> certifying
>> organizations:>
>>> >
>>> merican Academy of Nurse> >>>> Practitioners>>>>> >>>>> P.O. Box 12846>
>>> >
>>> ustin, TX 78711> > Phone: 512-442-4262> > Web:> >>>>> www.aanp.org> > >
>>> >
>>> ediatric Nursing Certification Board> >> >>>> 800 South> >>>>> Frederick
>>> venue> > Suite 104> > Gaithersburg, MD 20877-4150>> >>>>> Phone:> >>>>>
>>> 01-330-2921 or 888-641-2767> > Web: www.pncb.org> > > >> >>>> American
>> Nurses>
>>>>>>> Credentialing Center> > ATT: Verification Specialist> > PO Box> >>>>
>>> 91321> >> >>>>> Baltimore, MD 21279-1321> > Phone: 800-284-2378> > Web:>
>>>>>>>
>>> ww.nursecredentialing.org> > > > National Certification> >>>>
>>> Corporation>
>>>>
>>>>>>> (Formerly NAACOG)> > P.O. Box 11082> > Chicago, IL 60611-0082>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>> hone:> >>>>> 312-951-0207> > Web: www.nccnet.org (Certification for
>> women's>
>>>>>> health, >> >>>>> 312-951-0207> > >> >>>>> neonatal and> >
>>> ynecologic/reproductive nurse> >>>> practitioners.)> > > >> >>>>>
>>> Oncology
>>> ursing Certification Corporation> > 125 Enterprise> >>>> Drive> >> >>>>>
>>> ittsburgh, PA 15275-1214> > Phone: 877-769-6622> > Web:> >>>>
>> www.oncc.org> >
>>> ..> >>>>> Satisfaction of alternative certification requirements for >
>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>> raduatesof> nurse practitioner programs prior to April 1, 1989,> >>>>>>
>>> as
>>> ollows:> > > > >> >>>>>> a.. completion of at least a four-week long
>>> full-time)> >>>> nurse> >> >>>>> practitioner program prior to April 1,
>> 1989;>
>>>>> and> >>>> either> > > > > >> >>>>> b.. two years of experience prior
>>>>> to
>>> pril 1, 1989, of which >> >>>>> one year> >> >>>>> must be after April
>>> 1,
>>> 1986,
>>> n the provision of primary> >>>> health care> >> >>>>> services in a
>> health
>>> are facility licensed pursuant to> >>>> Article > > 28 of> >>>>> the> >
>> Public
>>> ealth Law or in a school health demonstration> >>>> project;> >> >>>>>
>> the> >
>>> >
>>>>>>>>> or> > > > > > c.. completion of a supplemental educational> >>>>
>>> rogram > >> >>>>> culminating in the> > successful completion of a
>>> omprehensive> >>>> examination> or clinical > > evaluation.(Registered
>> nurses>
>>>>>> should contact currently > >> >>>>> registered nurse practitioner> >
>>> rograms for information> >>>> about admission to> >>>>> their programs
>> with >
>>> >
>>> dvancedplacement.)> > > > > > AND> >> >>>>>> 4..> >>>>> Satisfaction of
>> the
>>> harmacotherapeutic requirement (for all>> >>>>> applicants,> >>>>>
>> regardless
>>> f whether A, B, or C above was > > completed). You> >>>> must> >> >>>>>
>>> ocument:> > > > > > a.. completion of not less than three> >>>> semester
>>> ours,> >>>>> or the > > equivalent,in pharmacotherapeutics to include>
>>>>>>
>>> nstruction in > >> >>>>> drug management of clients> > in the nurse
>>> ractitioner> >>>> specialty area and> >>>>> instruction in New > > York
>> State>
>>> and Federal laws and> >>>> regulations> relating to prescriptions and
>> record>
>>> keeping;> >> >>>>>> or> > > > > > b..> >>>>> completion of an
>>> educational
>>> rogram or a combination of > >> >>>> courseswhich is> >>>>> the
>> substantial
>>> quivalent in content and scope > > to the> >> >>>>> pharmacotherapeutics
>>> course
>>> isted above;> > > > or> > > > > > c..> >>>>> satisfactory completion of
>>> an
>>> xamination in > >> >>>>> pharmacotherapeuticsacceptable to the
>> Department;> >
>>> >
>>> or> >> >>>>>>>> d..> >>>>> satisfactory completion of a nationally
>> recognized>
>>>>>> examination> > acceptable> >>>>> for licensure in New York State as a
>>> hysician > > assistant> >>>> or for> >> >>>>> certification as a nurse
>>> idwife.> > > > > > Please Note: If> >>>> you have> >>>>> completed a
>> program
>>> ther than a > > New York State> >> >>>> licensure-qualifying> >>>>>
>> program
>>> nd/or your pharmacotherapeutics > > course did not> >> >>>> include>
>>> nstruction in New York State and Federal laws and> >>>> regulations> >
>> related
>>> o> >>>>> prescriptions and record keeping, you may contact the > >>
>>> >>>>>
>>> ollowingprofessional association's for required instruction:>> >>>>> The
>>> Nurse>
>>>>>>> Practitioner Association of New York State> > 12 Corporate> >>>>
>> Drive> >
>>> lifton> >>>>> Park, NY 12065> > Phone: 518-348-0719> > Web:
>> www.thenpa.org>>
>>>>>>> The New York> >>>>> State Nurses Association> > 11 Cornell Road> >
>> Latham,
>>> Y,> >>>> 12210-1499> >> >>>>> Phone: 518-782-9400 ext. 288> > Web:
>>> ww.nysna.org> > Online> >>>> course: New> >>>>> York Prescribing
>> Information
>>> or Nurse> > Practitioners> > > >> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>> --> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Certification by Endorsement>
>>>>>> >
>> If>
>>>>>> you are> >>>>> licensed or certified as a nurse practitioner in > >
>>> nother> >>>> state or> >> >>>>> country, the Department may certify you
>> upon
>>> eceipt of> >>>> satisfactory> >> >>>>> evidence that you have met the
>>> ubstantial equivalent of the> >>>> New York> >> >>>>> requirements for
>>> ertification. If you do not have the> >>>> substantial> >> >>>>>
>> equivalent of
>>> ll the New York requirements, you will be > >> >>>> required to> >>>>>
>> make
>>> up>
>>> specific deficiencies and/or pass a proficiency> >>>> examination.> > >>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>> ----> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Prescriptive Privilige> > If
>> you>
>>>>>> satisfy all> >>>>> requirements for certification as a nurse > >
>>> ractitioner,you> >>>> will be> >>>>> authorized to issue prescriptions >
>>> >
>>> ursuant to Section 6902> >>>> (3)> > (b) of> >>>>> the Education Law.> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>>
>>> -> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Issuance of Federal Drug
>> Enforcement>
>>>>>>> Administration (DEA) Number> > A Federal Drug Enforcement> >>>>
>>> dministration> (DEA) Number is > > required to> > prescribe and> >>>>
>> dispense
>>> arcotic and> >>>>> dangerous drugs. Controlled > > SubstancePrescription
>>> Forms>
>>>>>> may be obtained> >>>>> from:> > > > > >> >>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>> --> >> >>>>> -----------> > --> > > > Nurse Practitioner
>>>>>> Certification
>> in>
>>>>>> Additional> Specialty Areas > > of Practice> > If you are> >>>>
>> certified
>>> s a nurse> >>>>> practitioner in one specialty > > area, you may> > be>
>>>>>>
>>> ertified in one or> >>>>> more additional specialties by submitting > >>
>>>>>>
>>> videncesatisfactory to the> >>>>> Department that the criteria for > >
>> initial
>>> ertification> >> >>>> in the> >>>>> additional specialty or specialties
>> has
>>> een met, or that > >> >>>> you have> >> >>>>> met the following
>> alternative
>>> ducation and experience > >> >>>> requirements by>> >>>>>> September 15,
>> 2007.
>>> pplications to meet alternative> >>>> education > >> >>>>>
>> requirementsmust be
>>> ubmitted no later than September 15, 2006> >>>>>> in order> >>>>> to
>> qualify.
>>> he> > window of opportunity to obtain a second> >>>> specialty by the>
>>>>>>>
>>> lternative> > criteria option will formally end on September> >>>> 15,
>> 2007.>>
>>>>>>> alternative> > > >> >>>>>> 1.. Alternative education requirements.
>>>>>>> The
>>> epartment may >> >>>>> accept> >>>>>> 60> contact hours of continuing
>>> education
>>> n the specialty> >>>> area of > >> >>>>> practice in> > which
>> certification is
>>> ought. It may be> >>>> obtained through the> >>>>>>> completion of> >
>>> any
>>> ombination of the following:> > > > >> >>>>> 1..> >>>>> Academic courses
>> or
>>> ontinuing education programs > > approved> >>>> by the> >> >>>>>
>> Department or
>>> y a nursing or medical organization or > >> >>>> accrediting> agency> >
>>> cceptable to the Department.> > 2..> >>>> Evidence of preparation> >>>>>
>>> gency> > for> >>>>> the specialty by service as > > a presenter> > or
>> lecturer
>>> n> >>>> an academic or> >>>>> continuing education program, or > > by
>>> the>
>>>
>>> ublication in> >>>> a professional> >>>>> journal of clinical
>>> information
>>> >
>>> elated to the> >> >>>> specialty. Credit for> >>>>> such services or
>>> ublication may not > > exceed 30 contact> >> >>>> hours.> > 3..> >>>>>
>>> Up
>> to
>>> 12
>>> ontact hours of independent study in an > > academic> >>>> course or> >>
>>>>>>>
>>> ontinuing education program may be accepted.> > > > > > NOTE:> >>>> One
>>> ontact> >>>>> hour includes at least 50 minutes of study > > and one> >>
>>>>>>
>>> cademic semester> >>>>> hour equals 15 contact hours and one academic >
>>> >
>>> uarter> >>>> hour> > equals> >>>>> 12.5 contact hours.> > > > > > 2..
>>> lternative experience. The> >>>> Department> may accept either:> > > > >
>>> >
>> 1..
>>> 000 hours of> >>>> clinical practice after> >>>>> April 1, 1986 in > >
>>> the
>>> pecialty> > for which additional> >>>> certification is> >>>>> sought,
>>> in
>> a
>>> ealth care > > facilitylicensed pursuant to> >>>> Article 28 of the>
>>> >>>>>
>>> ublic Health Law > > or in a school> > health demonstration> >>>>
>> project,> >
>>> >
>>>>>>>>> or> > > > > > 2.. 300 hours of clinical practice as part of a>
>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>> linical> practicum> > affiliated with a nurse practitioner> >>>> program
>>> egistered by> >>>>> practicum> > the> >>>>>>> Department,or accredited
>>> by
>> an
>>> ccrediting agency acceptable> >>>> to > >> >>>>>>> the> >>>>>
>>> Department.>
>>> >
>>>>> Evidence of completion of educational> >>>> programs,> experience and
>>>>> >
>>>
>>> xaminationssubmitted to meet> >>>> alternative criteria for >> >>>>>>
>>> ertification as a nurse> > practitioner must be satisfactory> >>>> to
>>> the>
>>>>>>> Department, and the overall> > preparation of the applicant> >>>>
>>>>>>> must
>> be>
>>>>>>> comparable by assessment and> > substantially equivalent to> >>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>> reparation> >>>>> provided through a > > registered or> > approved
>> program.
>>> he> >>>> Department may> >>>>> require verification of the > > content
>> and> >
>>> ompletion of> >>>> the program or> >>>>> experience and of the
>> satisfactory >
>>> >
>>> erformanceof the> >>>> applicant by the> >>>>> person or institution > >
>>> onducting the program or in> >> >>>> which the> >>>>> experience was
>>> acquired.>
>>>>> You must submit a separate> >>>> application and> >>>>> $80
>> certification
>>> nd> > registration fee for each specialty> >>>> area for which> >>>>>
>>> you
>> are
>>> eeking> > certification.> > > > > >> >>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>>>> --> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > Practice Agreements and
>> Practice>
>>>>>> Protocols> >> >>>>> -----------> > ----> > > > You> >>>>> must
>> establish a
>>> ractice protocol from the approved list > >> >>>> prior to> >> >>>>>
>> beginning
>>> ractice and maintain it in the practice settings> >>>> for > > you and>
>>>>>>>
>>> our> > collaborating physician where it will be available to> >>>> the
>> State>
>>>>>>> your> > > >> >>>>> EducationDepartment for inspection. You must
>>>>>>> submit
>>> orm 4NP-> >> >>>>> Verification of Practice> > Protocol to the Office of
>> the>
>>>>>> Professions no> >>>>> later than 90 days after> > beginning
>>>>>> practice.>
>>> >
>>>>>>>> Practice agreements> >>>>> must include provisions for referral and
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>>> consultation,coverage for> >>>>> emergency absences of either the
>>>>>> nurse
>>> >
>>> ractitioner or> >> >>>> collaborating> physician, resolution of
>> disagreements
>>> etween> >>>> the nurse> > practitioner and> >>>>> collaborating
>>> physician
>>> egarding matters of > > diagnosis> >>>> and> > treatment,> >>>>> and the
>>> review
>>> f patient records at least every > > three> >>>> months by> > the> >>>>>
>>> ollaborating physician; and may include such other > >> >>>> provisions
>> as> >>
>>>>>>> determined by the nurse practitioner and collaborating> >>>>
>>>>>>> physician
>>> >
>>> o be>> >>>>>> appropriate.> > > > Practice protocols must identify the
>> area
>>> of>
>>>>>>>> practice> >>>>> to be > > performed by the> > nurse practitioner
>>>>>>>> in>
>>>>>>
>>> ollaboration with the> >>>>> physician and > > reflect accepted> >
>> standards
>>> of
>>> ursing and> >>>> medical> practice. Protocols shall include> >
>>> provisions
>> for>
>>>>>> case management,> >>>>> including diagnosis, treatment, and> >
>> appropriate>
>>>>>> recordkeeping by the> >>>>> nurse practitioner; and may > > include
>> other>
>>> provisions> >>>> determined to be> >>>>> appropriate by the nurse > >
>>> ractitioner and> > collaborating> >>>> physician.> >> >>>>>>> Questions
>> about
>>> ractice agreements and practice protocols > >> >>>>>>> should> >>>>> be>
>>> >
>>> eferred to the State Board for Nursing at 518-474-3817> >>>> ext. > >>
>>>>>>>
>>> e> > 120,> >>>>> Fax:> > 518-474-3706, or e-mail:
>>> nursebd at mail.nysed.gov.>
>>>
>>> >>
>>>>>>> * * * * * *> >>>>> * *> > License Statistics> > New York State
>>>>>>> Nursing
>>> icenses> >>>> Issued, Past 5> >>>>> Calendar Years> > Profession Title
>> 2002
>>> 003 2004 2005 2006> >> >>>> Registered> Professional Nurse 8,598 9,311
>> 10,582
>>> 1,576 13,609>> >>>>> Licensed Practical> >>>>> Nurse 3,055 3,657 4,027
>> 4,068
>>> ,494> > Nurse Practitioner 937> >>>> 784 825 700> >>>>> 884> > > > > >
>> Name :
>>> UNDINGER MARY O NEIL> > Address : RYE> >>>> NY> >> >>>>> Profession :
>>> EGISTERED PROFESSIONAL NURSING> > License No:> >>>> 146499> > Date>
>>> >>>>>
>> of
>>> icensure : Not on file> > Additional Qualification : Not> >>>>
>>> applicable
>> in>
>>>>>>> this profession> > Status : REGISTERED> > Registered through> >>>>
>> last
>>> ay of :> >>>>> 03/10> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >
>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>> rom: > > To: "NP> >>>>> Info" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007
>>> 3:26
>> AM>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [NPInfo]> >>>>> Who Will Be Your Doctor?> > > > > Who Will
>> Be
>>> our Doctor?> >> >>>>> In the> >>>>> future, indeed now, it may well be a
>> nurse
>>> ith a > > doctoral> >>>> degree.> > >> >>>>> Click the link below to
>>> read
>> the
>>> ull story:> > >> >> >>>>>
>>> http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/nurses-doctors-practice-oped->
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cx_mom_1128nurses.html?partner=alerts>> > > >> >>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________> > NPInfo> >>>> mailing
>> list>
>>> >>
>>>>>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >> >>>>
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>>>>> *****************************> > >> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>> PInfo> >>>> mailing list>> >>>>> NPInfo at nurse.net>
>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>>
>>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>>
>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________>
>>>>>>> Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we> >>>>
>> donate.?
>>> oin in.> >>>>>> >>>> www.windowslive.com/smile? > >>>>
>>> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline__________>>
>>>>> _____________________________________> >>>>> NPInfo mailing list>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>> PInfo at nurse.net> >>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>>>
>>> ****************************> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>>>
>>>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>>>
>>>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>>>
>>>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>>
>>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> __ ___> >>>> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
>>>>>>> !
>> ->
>>>>>> http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/ > >>>>
>>> ext.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003> >>>>
>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>>
>>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>>> *****************************> >>>>> >>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>
>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>> *****************************> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> __ __> >>> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail
>>>>>> ! -
>>>
>>>>> http:// o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/ > >>>
>> text.htm?
>>> cid=aolcmp00050000000003> >>>
>> _______________________________________________>
>>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >>> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>>
>>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>>> *****************************> >>> >>
>>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>>> NPInfo mailing list> >> NPInfo at nurse.net> >>
>>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>>> *****************************> >> >
>>>> _______________________________________________>
>>> NPInfo mailing list> > NPInfo at nurse.net> >
>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>> *****************************> >
>>> _______________________________________________>
>>> PInfo mailing list> NPInfo at nurse.net>
>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo>
>>> ****************************
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> ut your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live.
>>>
>>
>
ttp://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_M
>> ed
>>> iaCtr_bigscreen_102007_______________________________________________
>>> PInfo mailing list
>>> PInfo at nurse.net
>>> ttp://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>>> ****************************
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
>>>
>>
>
http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aol
>> cm
>>> p00050000000003
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NPInfo mailing list
>>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
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>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
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