[NPInfo] DNP and RESPECT

Thu Nov 29 18:18:31 PST 2007

Sue, I agree with you.? If our state makes us collaborate, we don't have independent practice.? I also live and work in a state with collaborative practice.? But, when your state nursing organization opens your Nurse Practice Act and lobbies for expanded practice, the medical lobby will be there shouting that NPs don't have the education or training for independent practice...... and the majority of your state legislators will believe them for many reasons including the belief that a masters degree does not equal an MD (which is a clinical doctorate).

Years ago the MDs were fighting with the DOs saying that the DO was inferior to the MD.? It took years of education of the public and legislators? to convince them that although the curriculum had differences and the degree conferred had different letters, their education and training as health care providers was equally acceptable and was, after all, a doctoral degree.? Even today, there are segments of the population who will only go to an MD versus a DO.

Your physician colleagues will get use to the DNP degree, just as the MDs got use to the DOs. 
I do agree that as a profession, we need to come up with a clinical doctorate "name" and stick to it to avoid more confusion. 
Thanks for the discussion.
Judy

-----Original Message-----
From: suernfnp at iwon.com <suernfnp at iwon.com>
To: npinfo at nurse.net
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 7:17 pm
Subject: [NPInfo] DNP and R*E*S*P*E*C*T

Judy, the reason I am not ready to attend my former college's DNP degree program 
is because I am  not convinced in any way that this degree will level the 
playing field between professions. From speaking with DOs and MDs where I work, 
I would earn great respect from them if I had a PhD in any field. They would not 
understand what a DNP or DNS or DrNP is. As a NP I still am required to 
collaborate with a physican, so the playing field will not be level in my state, 
no matter what degree I hold, until I can practice independently.

Sue D in Detroit, MI - The home of Aretha and R*E*S*P*E*C*T

 --- On Thu 11/29,  < jabphd83 at aol.com > wrote:
From:  [mailto: jabphd83 at aol.com]
To: npinfo at nurse.net
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:29:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Mary Mundinger

Dave:??You talk about an "end degree" for the other professions, but not so in 
nursing.? A Pharm.D. is a clinical doctorate.? An MD is a clinical doctorate.?A 
PsyD. is a clinical doctorate.? ?A DNP, DrNP or DNS are clinical doctorates.?? 
If anyone in these professions want to do serious research and?have major?grant 
funding, they will need a Ph.D.? That is why you may see MDs and PharmDs with a 
PhD as part of their credentials.? Academically speaking, a PhD is the terminal 
degree in all professions.? Many professionals do not need this degree to 
practice clinically or to be clinical faculty, but to do scientific research and 
receive major NIH grants and lead teams in national clinical trials or to be 
tenured in a research intense university, the Ph.D. is the way to go. 
 Academically,the Ph.D. is the end degree for all professions,? including 
nursing.? Nursing came late to this conclusion and 25 - 30 +?yrs ago, 
nurses obtained doctorates in other disciplines 
until?the profession?concluded that along with a shared body of knowledge from 
many disciplines, ?nursing had a unique body of knowledge that would support a 
PhD in nursing.? Because nursing is a practice discipline with a 
solid?theoretical base, many nurses opted for a theoretically based education 
with? clinical application?versus?theoretical development and basic science 
research.? ?That is why?nursing first went with a clinical doctorate such as a 
DNS, ND and then DNP.? These clinical doctorates are evolving, but?they are all 
clinical doctorates that emphasize?clinical application built on a strong 
theoretical ?base. What we are seeing is the evolution of a profession, 
with all it's growing pains, and sometimes false starts.? But nursing is moving 
forward and we are setting ourselves up to compete with other professions - 
practice and basic science alike. If we want to compete for health care 
dollars? and withstand the criticism of our "lack of training an!
 d 
education" from other health professionals, we must have similar educational 
endpoints ( ie: a clinical doctorate like MDs or PharmDs or PsyDs) or we will 
continue to be seen as second?class providers by congress, health insurers, 
other professionals, and consumers. I realize that you are a PA and may 
not have the?knowledge of nursing's history, but it is a history worth noting.? 
PAs are a much younger profession than nursing and the lessons learned by 
nursing, good and bad, may be something PAs should take note.?? Both 
professions know we are "good" and how well we do our jobs.? But we have to get 
this message to the legislators, big business, insurers and the consumers.? To 
do this, we must "prove" we have the knowledge and credentials to do what we say 
we do as independent professionals.? In today's world a doctorate is the 
academic credential that these groups "first" look?for before they actually see 
what you can do. The academic credential is the 
proverbial "foot in the door" to gain entry and then the?opportunity to prove 
we?deserve equal standing with other health care providers. I am a 
practicing NP who is politically active, a faculty member, and a researcher.? I 
have also continually gone back to school to get the expertise and/or credential 
I needed to move forward in my profession and reach my goals.? At times I have 
gone back to school "kicking and screaming" because I thought my 25 yrs of 
experience as an NP "should count for something".? However, I must admit that I 
always learned something in school and it always opened up new avenues to 
explore. Individual NPs and PAs may decide they do not need a doctorate 
to reach their individual goals or?enhance their practice and that is OK.? But, 
as a profession, nursing needs to compete on equal footing with other members of 
the health care team and to be viewed as equals by all the stakeholders, we need 
the academic credentials.??The clinical 
doctorate contributes to nursings' ability to compete?on an equal playing 
field. Judy -----

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