[NPInfo] Re: WSJ Article
Tracy Klein
whcnp at yahoo.com
Wed Apr 2 11:01:02 PDT 2008
The section of this article that disturbed me was the phrase: "equivalent to family physicians". I would assume (and may still assume, I suppose) that this was a misquote. Unfortunately, I've read the same language several times from this particular spokesperson. While it may be expeditious to assert that the DNP in New York is "more better" in order to gain regulatory autonomy, it does not do the rest of the profession any favors to compare them, once again, to a physician standard as the superior standard and to their practicing peers as the inferior standard.
As a disclaimer, I favor the DNP, but I care about how we talk about it and the terminology we use.
Tracy Klein, WHCNP,FNP
Portland, Oregon
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Today's Topics:
1. MRSA Dr Phil Style (Priscilla Merrill)
2. WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (SGrtWhite at aol.com)
3. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (David Mittman)
4. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" ... comment (Nbalkon at aol.com)
5. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (Thiem)
6. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (David Mittman)
7. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (Kate Hammill)
8. Wall Street Journal DNP article (David Mittman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:45:36 -0400
From: "Priscilla Merrill"
Subject: [NPInfo] MRSA Dr Phil Style
To: "'NP Clinical'" , "'NP Info'"
Message-ID: <00ec01c894ae$af456480$6700a8c0 at Priscilla>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
Did any of you see Dr. Phil yesterday? It was on MRSA/ “Superbug”
I think he did a good job overall presenting most of the key points.
Have any of you seen, heard of or used the uv light “Cleanse Wand”?
Fascinating!
HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK http://www.cleanselight.com
http://www.cleanselight.com" HYPERLINK www.cleanselight.com
www.cleanselight.com (I see they sold out quickly after his show )
He carried a diluted spray bottle of Lysol wherever he goes (Dr. Sears, no
Phil)
A little hype perhaps but food for thought.
We don’t seem to have the MRSA problem as severely here in NH as others.
Too darn cold for those bugs! I’m finally seeing patches of grass through
the snow!
HYPERLINK http://drphil.com/shows/show/1048/
http://drphil.com/shows/show/1048/
Priscilla Merrill FNP
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:09:42 EDT
From: SGrtWhite at aol.com
Subject: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
To: npinfo at nurse.net
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
_http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
(http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and nurse
practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
"Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use “Dr.†some physicians
worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses with an advanced degree are
not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,†says Roger Moore,
incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that we are
physicians. Please!
Stephen
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:26:47 -0400
From: David Mittman
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
To: NP Info
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
When you are a physician you feel that you are captain of the ship
(and in many ways you are).
Others come along that SAY that they can do what you do........
They say that you do not need to go to medical school to be a good
clinician...............
And now some of these people want to be referred to as "Doctor".
I fully understand how physicians would at a minimum feel that
patients will be confused (and they will be) and at a maximum, how
there will soon be no difference between others who did not do it
"the right way" as they did which to them is the ONLY way one can do it.
I can nfullkyfullky see how threatening this is to docs generally.
That being said if you have a doctorate in a clinical area, you
earned it and should use it.
Dave
On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:09 AM, SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote:
> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
> mod=WSJBlog_
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
> mod=WSJBlog)
>
> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and
> nurse
> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>
> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use “Dr.” some
> physicians
> worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses with an advanced
> degree are
> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,” says
> Roger Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>
> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that
> we are
> physicians. Please!
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video
> on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
> video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:37:28 EDT
From: Nbalkon at aol.com
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" ... comment
To: npinfo at nurse.net
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Good Day....
Am responding to the quote below...
My name tag clearly states Nancy Balkon, PhD, NP
It has been "the physicians" who have called me "Dr".... and the patients
who are often interested to know that nurses earn advanced degrees.... yes,
EVEN doctorates!
Sighhh.... the "medical school"/ "medical education" argument is soooooo old
and over-rated! Medical school is FOUR years post baccalaureate
education.... with.... "internship"/"residency" thereafter....
Comparing this to APRN education [didactic & clinical]...and... years in
practice..... isn't worth the bother....
WHAT is impt. is that we, as health professionals, should "celebrate" and
"respect" the uniqueness of one another, collaborate professionally, and work
together toward a common goal... improving health care in this country! This
is the most profitable expenditure of the energy wasted on turf battles!
"Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use “Dr.†some physicians
worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses with an advanced degree
are
not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,†says Roger Moore,
incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
_http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
(http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
Nancy Balkon, PhD, ANP-C, APRN-CS, NPP
Southern New York State Representative -- AANP
Clinical Associate Professor, Stony Brook University School of Nursing
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thiem
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
To: NP Info
Message-ID: <690808.75384.qm at web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
In Missouri this restricted use of "Dr" has been suggested in legislation by the physician groups. Our (nurses) suggestion is that anyone who uses "Dr" must also identify what type of doctorate they hold. This would include all professions and would distribute the responsibility of disclosure evenly.
Laura
SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote: _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
(http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and nurse
practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
"Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use “Dr.†some physicians
worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses with an advanced degree are
not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,†says Roger Moore,
incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that we are
physicians. Please!
Stephen
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:13:56 -0400
From: David Mittman
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
To: NP Info
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Many states already have this law (prohibiting the use of the term
"doctor" in a medical setting). It will be interesting to see how
this all plays out.
Years ago, there were no other doctorates that did what physicians
did, so no one opposed.
Now there are. The mistake that will take years to correct, is that
society made physician and doctor a word with the same meaning.
Generally still holds. When one screams "Is there a doctor in the
house?" in a public place they are not asking for a PharmD.
And to deny that it will confuse patients is to deny reality. AGAIN
that still is no excuse for prohibiting us using it, only that we
should be sensative to that confusion and possibly address it.
Dave
On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Thiem wrote:
> In Missouri this restricted use of "Dr" has been suggested in
> legislation by the physician groups. Our (nurses) suggestion is
> that anyone who uses "Dr" must also identify what type of doctorate
> they hold. This would include all professions and would distribute
> the responsibility of disclosure evenly.
>
> Laura
>
> SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote: _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/
> say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
> mod=WSJBlog)
>
> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and
> nurse
> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>
> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use “Dr.” some
> physicians
> worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses with an advanced
> degree are
> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,” says
> Roger Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>
> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that
> we are
> physicians. Please!
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video
> on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
> video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kate Hammill
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
To: NP Info
Message-ID: <729375.57014.qm at web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
The proper name for them is "physician". "Doctor" is
a broader term encompassing the Doctor of Philosophy,
among other things, and is owned and used properly by
thousand who are non-physicians. Physicians have no
leg to stand on that this term belongs to only them
and we should not let them get away with it--I never
use the term "doctor" to describe them--always
"physician" (and usually add "heal thyself" as an
aside.) Boy, its' a full time job, isn't it, just
keeping up with the dishonesty and disingenuousness of
this gang.
Kate Hammill
--- David Mittman wrote:
> When you are a physician you feel that you are
> captain of the ship
> (and in many ways you are).
> Others come along that SAY that they can do what you
> do........
> They say that you do not need to go to medical
> school to be a good
> clinician...............
> And now some of these people want to be referred to
> as "Doctor".
> I fully understand how physicians would at a minimum
> feel that
> patients will be confused (and they will be) and at
> a maximum, how
> there will soon be no difference between others who
> did not do it
> "the right way" as they did which to them is the
> ONLY way one can do it.
> I can nfullkyfullky see how threatening this is to
> docs generally.
> That being said if you have a doctorate in a
> clinical area, you
> earned it and should use it.
> Dave
>
> On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:09 AM, SGrtWhite at aol.com
> wrote:
>
> >
>
_http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>
> > mod=WSJBlog_
> >
>
(http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>
> > mod=WSJBlog)
> >
> > An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about
> doctorate degrees and
> > nurse
> > practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
> >
> > "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use
> “Dr.” some
> > physicians
> > worry that patients could become confused. “Nurses
> with an advanced
> > degree are
> > not the same as doctors who have been to medical
> school,” says
> > Roger Moore,
> > incoming president of the American Society of
> Anesthesiologists."
> >
> > See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients
> into thinking that
> > we are
> > physicians. Please!
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros.
> Watch the video
> > on AOL
> > Home.
> >
>
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
>
> > video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
> > _______________________________________________
> > NPInfo mailing list
> > NPInfo at nurse.net
> > http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> > *****************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:26:35 -0400
From: David Mittman
Subject: [NPInfo] Wall Street Journal DNP article
To: ACC Circle Circle , NPinfo
, PA Forum
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Keeping the argument aside on whether one needs this or not- I know
that not just NPs are able to get the DNP and that in many programs
there is little advanced CLINICAL training (ie. clinical residency).
This article seems to suggest something very different. It is one
institutions view of the DNP not what is fully happening.
Dave
Making Room
For 'Dr. Nurse'
April 2, 2008; Page D1
As the shortage of primary-care physicians mounts, the nursing
profession is offering a possible solution: the "doctor nurse."
More than 200 nursing schools have established or plan to launch
doctorate of nursing practice programs to equip graduates with skills
the schools say are equivalent to primary-care physicians. The two-
year programs, including a one-year residency, create a "hybrid
practitioner" with more skills, knowledge and training than a nurse
practitioner with a master's degree, says Mary Mundinger, dean of New
York's Columbia University School of Nursing. She says DNPs are being
trained to have more focus than doctors on coordinating care among
many specialists and health-care settings.

Dawn Bucher, DNP, and child patient at Ivanhoe Clinic in Ivanhoe, Minn.
To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the
non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care plans to
announce Wednesday that the National Board of Medical Examiners has
agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the
same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license. The board
will begin administering the exam this fall. By 2015, the American
Association of Colleges of Nursing aims to make the doctoral degree
the standard for all new advanced practice nurses, including nurse
practitioners.
But some physician groups warn that blurring the line between doctors
and nurses will confuse patients and jeopardize care. Nurses with
doctorates use DrNP after their name, and can also use the
designation Dr. as a title. Physician groups want DNPs to be required
to clearly state to patients and prospective students that they are
not medical doctors. "Nurses with an advanced degree are not the same
as doctors who have been to medical school," says Roger Moore,
incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists.
"With four years of medical school and three years of residency
training, physicians' understanding of complex medical issues and
clinical expertise is unequaled," adds James King, president of the
American Academy of Family Physicians. While nurses with advanced
degrees play an important role in delivering care, Dr. King says they
should work as part of a physician-directed team.
Although there are no precise statistics on the number of nurses with
doctorates because the programs are relatively new, there are about
1,874 DNP students currently enrolled in programs nationwide, up from
862 students in 2006, according to the American Association of
Colleges of Nursing.
Nurses have increasingly been moving into more specialized and
advanced roles over the past few decades. Advanced-practice nurses
include specialists in fields such as nurse midwives and nurse
anesthetists, and there are now more than 125,000 nurse practitioners
in the U.S. Nurse practitioners in some states are required to work
with or be supervised by physicians, but often have independent
practices in family medicine, adult care, pediatrics and oncology.
A study led by Columbia's Dr. Mundinger and published in the Journal
of the American Medical Association in 2000 showed comparable patient
outcomes in patients randomly assigned to nurse practitioners and
primary-care physicians.
Nurse practitioners fear the doctoral programs might be raising the
bar too high for their profession. The American Academy of Nurse
Practitioners says it supports access to a higher educational degree
for nurses, but wants to ensure that members won't be marginalized or
required to go back to school for a costly advanced degree. Nurse
practitioners can write prescriptions, are eligible for Medicare and
Medicaid reimbursement, and often act as the primary health-care
provider for their patients.
"Nurse practitioners with master's degrees are already filling the
primary-care shortages and providing quality, cost-effective care,
many times in places that physicians are unwilling to practice," says
Wendy Vogel, a nurse practitioner specializing in oncology at Blue
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