[NPInfo] Re: WSJ Article

[Lisa Meyer]

With this new DNP thread I have the same question that I asked last time it 
came around.  Perhaps there is a new answer this time:  Can anyone please 
tell me the name of a DNP program that has CLINICAL content??  Last time I 
asked this question, I was named some programs.  I vistited thier web sites 
and scoured the curriculum for each.  None of it looked as if it was 
clinical content--just more theory, statistics, research, and 
"organizational" stuff.  The "residencies" looked more organizational and 
management oriented, rather than anything to do with treating human beings 
with disease processes.  Has anything changed??  And if not, why do we keep 
saying that these programs are "clinical"?

Lisa

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tracy Klein" <whcnp at yahoo.com>
To: <npinfo at nurse.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: [NPInfo] Re: WSJ Article


> The section of this article that disturbed me was the phrase: "equivalent 
> to family physicians". I would assume (and may still assume, I suppose) 
> that this was a misquote. Unfortunately, I've read the same language 
> several times from this particular spokesperson. While it may be 
> expeditious to assert that the DNP in New York is "more better" in order 
> to gain regulatory autonomy, it does not do the rest of the profession any 
> favors to compare them, once again, to a physician standard as the 
> superior standard and to their practicing peers as the inferior standard.
>
>  As a disclaimer, I favor the DNP, but I care about how we talk about it 
> and the terminology we use.
>
>  Tracy Klein, WHCNP,FNP
>  Portland, Oregon
>
> npinfo-request at nurse.net wrote:
>  Send NPInfo mailing list submissions to
> npinfo at nurse.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> npinfo-request at nurse.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> npinfo-owner at nurse.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of NPInfo digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. MRSA Dr Phil Style (Priscilla Merrill)
> 2. WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (SGrtWhite at aol.com)
> 3. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (David Mittman)
> 4. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" ... comment (Nbalkon at aol.com)
> 5. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (Thiem)
> 6. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (David Mittman)
> 7. Re: WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" (Kate Hammill)
> 8. Wall Street Journal DNP article (David Mittman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:45:36 -0400
> From: "Priscilla Merrill"
>
> Subject: [NPInfo] MRSA Dr Phil Style
> To: "'NP Clinical'" , "'NP Info'"
>
> Message-ID: <00ec01c894ae$af456480$6700a8c0 at Priscilla>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
>
> Did any of you see Dr. Phil yesterday? It was on MRSA/ "Superbug"
> I think he did a good job overall presenting most of the key points.
> Have any of you seen, heard of or used the uv light "Cleanse Wand"?
> Fascinating!
> HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK http://www.cleanselight.com
> http://www.cleanselight.com" HYPERLINK www.cleanselight.com
> www.cleanselight.com (I see they sold out quickly after his show )
> He carried a diluted spray bottle of Lysol wherever he goes (Dr. Sears, no
> Phil)
> A little hype perhaps but food for thought.
> We don't seem to have the MRSA problem as severely here in NH as others.
> Too darn cold for those bugs! I'm finally seeing patches of grass through
> the snow!
>
> HYPERLINK http://drphil.com/shows/show/1048/
> http://drphil.com/shows/show/1048/
>
> Priscilla Merrill FNP
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.4/1355 - Release Date: 4/1/2008
> 5:37 PM
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:09:42 EDT
> From: SGrtWhite at aol.com
> Subject: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
> To: npinfo at nurse.net
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
>
> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and nurse
> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>
> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use â?oDr.â? some 
> physicians
> worry that patients could become confused. â?oNurses with an advanced 
> degree are
> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,� says Roger 
> Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>
> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that we are
> physicians. Please!
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:26:47 -0400
> From: David Mittman
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
> To: NP Info
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
> format=flowed
>
> When you are a physician you feel that you are captain of the ship
> (and in many ways you are).
> Others come along that SAY that they can do what you do........
> They say that you do not need to go to medical school to be a good
> clinician...............
> And now some of these people want to be referred to as "Doctor".
> I fully understand how physicians would at a minimum feel that
> patients will be confused (and they will be) and at a maximum, how
> there will soon be no difference between others who did not do it
> "the right way" as they did which to them is the ONLY way one can do it.
> I can nfullkyfullky see how threatening this is to docs generally.
> That being said if you have a doctorate in a clinical area, you
> earned it and should use it.
> Dave
>
> On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:09 AM, SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote:
>
>> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>> mod=WSJBlog_
>> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>> mod=WSJBlog)
>>
>> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and
>> nurse
>> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>>
>> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use "Dr." some
>> physicians
>> worry that patients could become confused. "Nurses with an advanced
>> degree are
>> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school," says
>> Roger Moore,
>> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>>
>> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that
>> we are
>> physicians. Please!
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video
>> on AOL
>> Home.
>> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
>> video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:37:28 EDT
> From: Nbalkon at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse" ... comment
> To: npinfo at nurse.net
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Good Day....
>
> Am responding to the quote below...
>
> My name tag clearly states Nancy Balkon, PhD, NP
>
> It has been "the physicians" who have called me "Dr".... and the patients
> who are often interested to know that nurses earn advanced degrees.... 
> yes,
> EVEN doctorates!
>
> Sighhh.... the "medical school"/ "medical education" argument is soooooo 
> old
> and over-rated! Medical school is FOUR years post baccalaureate
> education.... with.... "internship"/"residency" thereafter....
>
> Comparing this to APRN education [didactic & clinical]...and... years in
> practice..... isn't worth the bother....
>
> WHAT is impt. is that we, as health professionals, should "celebrate" and
> "respect" the uniqueness of one another, collaborate professionally, and 
> work
> together toward a common goal... improving health care in this country! 
> This
> is the most profitable expenditure of the energy wasted on turf battles!
>
> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use â?oDr.â? some 
> physicians
> worry that patients could become confused. â?oNurses with an advanced 
> degree
> are
> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,� says Roger 
> Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>
> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
>
> Nancy Balkon, PhD, ANP-C, APRN-CS, NPP
> Southern New York State Representative -- AANP
> Clinical Associate Professor, Stony Brook University School of Nursing
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Thiem
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
> To: NP Info
> Message-ID: <690808.75384.qm at web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> In Missouri this restricted use of "Dr" has been suggested in legislation 
> by the physician groups. Our (nurses) suggestion is that anyone who uses 
> "Dr" must also identify what type of doctorate they hold. This would 
> include all professions and would distribute the responsibility of 
> disclosure evenly.
>
> Laura
>
> SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote: 
> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog)
>
> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and nurse
> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>
> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use â?oDr.â? some 
> physicians
> worry that patients could become confused. â?oNurses with an advanced 
> degree are
> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school,� says Roger 
> Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>
> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that we are
> physicians. Please!
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
> Home.
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:13:56 -0400
> From: David Mittman
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
> To: NP Info
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
> format=flowed
>
> Many states already have this law (prohibiting the use of the term
> "doctor" in a medical setting). It will be interesting to see how
> this all plays out.
> Years ago, there were no other doctorates that did what physicians
> did, so no one opposed.
> Now there are. The mistake that will take years to correct, is that
> society made physician and doctor a word with the same meaning.
> Generally still holds. When one screams "Is there a doctor in the
> house?" in a public place they are not asking for a PharmD.
> And to deny that it will confuse patients is to deny reality. AGAIN
> that still is no excuse for prohibiting us using it, only that we
> should be sensative to that confusion and possibly address it.
> Dave
> On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Thiem wrote:
>
>> In Missouri this restricted use of "Dr" has been suggested in
>> legislation by the physician groups. Our (nurses) suggestion is
>> that anyone who uses "Dr" must also identify what type of doctorate
>> they hold. This would include all professions and would distribute
>> the responsibility of disclosure evenly.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> SGrtWhite at aol.com wrote: _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/
>> say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?mod=WSJBlog_
>> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>> mod=WSJBlog)
>>
>> An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about doctorate degrees and
>> nurse
>> practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>>
>> "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use "Dr." some
>> physicians
>> worry that patients could become confused. "Nurses with an advanced
>> degree are
>> not the same as doctors who have been to medical school," says
>> Roger Moore,
>> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists."
>>
>> See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients into thinking that
>> we are
>> physicians. Please!
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video
>> on AOL
>> Home.
>> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
>> video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Kate Hammill
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] WSJ Health Blog: "Dr. Nurse"
> To: NP Info
> Message-ID: <729375.57014.qm at web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> The proper name for them is "physician". "Doctor" is
> a broader term encompassing the Doctor of Philosophy,
> among other things, and is owned and used properly by
> thousand who are non-physicians. Physicians have no
> leg to stand on that this term belongs to only them
> and we should not let them get away with it--I never
> use the term "doctor" to describe them--always
> "physician" (and usually add "heal thyself" as an
> aside.) Boy, its' a full time job, isn't it, just
> keeping up with the dishonesty and disingenuousness of
> this gang.
> Kate Hammill
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- David Mittman wrote:
>
>> When you are a physician you feel that you are
>> captain of the ship
>> (and in many ways you are).
>> Others come along that SAY that they can do what you
>> do........
>> They say that you do not need to go to medical
>> school to be a good
>> clinician...............
>> And now some of these people want to be referred to
>> as "Doctor".
>> I fully understand how physicians would at a minimum
>> feel that
>> patients will be confused (and they will be) and at
>> a maximum, how
>> there will soon be no difference between others who
>> did not do it
>> "the right way" as they did which to them is the
>> ONLY way one can do it.
>> I can nfullkyfullky see how threatening this is to
>> docs generally.
>> That being said if you have a doctorate in a
>> clinical area, you
>> earned it and should use it.
>> Dave
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2008, at 10:09 AM, SGrtWhite at aol.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
> _http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>>
>> > mod=WSJBlog_
>> >
>>
> (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/04/02/say-hello-to-dr-nurse/?
>>
>> > mod=WSJBlog)
>> >
>> > An article in today's WSJ Health Blog about
>> doctorate degrees and
>> > nurse
>> > practitioners. Gotta love the physician comment:
>> >
>> > "Also, since these nurses with a doctorate can use
>> "Dr." some
>> > physicians
>> > worry that patients could become confused. "Nurses
>> with an advanced
>> > degree are
>> > not the same as doctors who have been to medical
>> school," says
>> > Roger Moore,
>> > incoming president of the American Society of
>> Anesthesiologists."
>> >
>> > See? Our goal is to try and "confuse" patients
>> into thinking that
>> > we are
>> > physicians. Please!
>> >
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros.
>> Watch the video
>> > on AOL
>> > Home.
>> >
>>
> (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?
>>
>> > video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > NPInfo mailing list
>> > NPInfo at nurse.net
>> > http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> > *****************************
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NPInfo mailing list
>> NPInfo at nurse.net
>> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
>> *****************************
>>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster 
> Total Access, No Cost.
> http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:26:35 -0400
> From: David Mittman
> Subject: [NPInfo] Wall Street Journal DNP article
> To: ACC Circle Circle , NPinfo
> , PA Forum
>
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>Keeping the argument aside on whether one needs this or not- I know
> that not just NPs are able to get the DNP and that in many programs
> there is little advanced CLINICAL training (ie. clinical residency).
> This article seems to suggest something very different. It is one
> institutions view of the DNP not what is fully happening.
> Dave
>
>
> Making Room
> For 'Dr. Nurse'
> April 2, 2008; Page D1
> As the shortage of primary-care physicians mounts, the nursing
> profession is offering a possible solution: the "doctor nurse."
>
> More than 200 nursing schools have established or plan to launch
> doctorate of nursing practice programs to equip graduates with skills
> the schools say are equivalent to primary-care physicians. The two-
> year programs, including a one-year residency, create a "hybrid
> practitioner" with more skills, knowledge and training than a nurse
> practitioner with a master's degree, says Mary Mundinger, dean of New
> York's Columbia University School of Nursing. She says DNPs are being
> trained to have more focus than doctors on coordinating care among
> many specialists and health-care settings.
>
>
> 
>
> Dawn Bucher, DNP, and child patient at Ivanhoe Clinic in Ivanhoe, Minn.
> To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the
> non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care plans to
> announce Wednesday that the National Board of Medical Examiners has
> agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the
> same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license. The board
> will begin administering the exam this fall. By 2015, the American
> Association of Colleges of Nursing aims to make the doctoral degree
> the standard for all new advanced practice nurses, including nurse
> practitioners.
>
> But some physician groups warn that blurring the line between doctors
> and nurses will confuse patients and jeopardize care. Nurses with
> doctorates use DrNP after their name, and can also use the
> designation Dr. as a title. Physician groups want DNPs to be required
> to clearly state to patients and prospective students that they are
> not medical doctors. "Nurses with an advanced degree are not the same
> as doctors who have been to medical school," says Roger Moore,
> incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists.
>
> "With four years of medical school and three years of residency
> training, physicians' understanding of complex medical issues and
> clinical expertise is unequaled," adds James King, president of the
> American Academy of Family Physicians. While nurses with advanced
> degrees play an important role in delivering care, Dr. King says they
> should work as part of a physician-directed team.
>
> Although there are no precise statistics on the number of nurses with
> doctorates because the programs are relatively new, there are about
> 1,874 DNP students currently enrolled in programs nationwide, up from
> 862 students in 2006, according to the American Association of
> Colleges of Nursing.
>
> Nurses have increasingly been moving into more specialized and
> advanced roles over the past few decades. Advanced-practice nurses
> include specialists in fields such as nurse midwives and nurse
> anesthetists, and there are now more than 125,000 nurse practitioners
> in the U.S. Nurse practitioners in some states are required to work
> with or be supervised by physicians, but often have independent
> practices in family medicine, adult care, pediatrics and oncology.
>
> A study led by Columbia's Dr. Mundinger and published in the Journal
> of the American Medical Association in 2000 showed comparable patient
> outcomes in patients randomly assigned to nurse practitioners and
> primary-care physicians.
>
> Nurse practitioners fear the doctoral programs might be raising the
> bar too high for their profession. The American Academy of Nurse
> Practitioners says it supports access to a higher educational degree
> for nurses, but wants to ensure that members won't be marginalized or
> required to go back to school for a costly advanced degree. Nurse
> practitioners can write prescriptions, are eligible for Medicare and
> Medicaid reimbursement, and often act as the primary health-care
> provider for their patients.
>
> "Nurse practitioners with master's degrees are already filling the
> primary-care shortages and providing quality, cost-effective care,
> many times in places that physicians are unwilling to practice," says
> Wendy Vogel, a nurse practitioner specializing in oncology at Blue
>
> === message truncated ===
> _______________________________________________
> NPInfo mailing list
> NPInfo at nurse.net
> http://lists.nurse.net/mailman/listinfo/npinfo
> *****************************
>