[NPInfo] Homeopathy & other "delusions" (was: Iron DeficiencyAnemia)

[Jeff and Linda Bocchetto]

well said!  Linda B, NP


>From: "ROBERT DOERFLER" <redoerfler at verizon.net>
>Reply-To: NP Info <npinfo at nurse.net>
>To: "'NP Info'" <npinfo at nurse.net>
>Subject: [NPInfo] Homeopathy & other "delusions" (was: Iron 
>DeficiencyAnemia)
>Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:13:01 -0400
>
>Stephanie is on the money. The problems with homeopathy:
>1) The dilutions, which may exceed Avogadro's number (10 -23) ought to
>contain no molecules of the original substance.
>2) Moreover, there is no known physiological theory that would explain why
>"like cures like" or anything about how remedies can influence an organism
>to heal under their influence.
>3) The paradigm of health and disease in homeopathy is completely
>antithetical to "classical" notions of pathophysiology, and in fact tends 
>to
>ignore them, or at least make them of secondary importance to understanding
>the "essential imbalance" as it were.
>
>However, I would note that "curved spacetime" would have been gobbledgook 
>to
>a scientist of the late 19th century, and yet in only 30 years Einstein
>would shatter the mechanistic model of the universe with the relativity
>theories. A short time later we would learn that matter can literally
>"vanish" out of existance--only to reappear elsewhere later--as we
>discovered quantum physics.
>
>So my point is: maybe yer right...but wait around a while. Maybe homeopathy
>is a trace of things to come. Benchtop studies in immunochemistry,
>immunology, and chemistry have provided at least a glimmer of support for
>alternative hypotheses that would account for homeopathy, if not yet 
>explain
>it. Clinical trials of varying quality have shown that homeopathy appears 
>to
>work. Contrarily, some meta-analyses have suggested both that homeopathy's
>effects exceed those of placebo, and that they do not! Moreover, there are
>authors who have argued that "placebo" effects (what Kaptchuk prefers to
>call "context effects") are indeed legitimate therapeutics that we should
>employ deliberately.
>
>We're so caught up in "evidence basis" that we forget: we're all just
>shamans, magicians, trying to walk with people to the other side of 
>whatever
>suffering they're on. So what's the harm in a little ritual? A little
>mystique? We persist in the belief that if we just take things "apart"
>enough, we'll know everything, cure everything. We won't. Part of the human
>condition is the searching, and it seems that whenever we "get it" Nature
>throws one more thing at us to remind us that we actually don't.
>
>That said, I support a regulatory environment that would limit government
>control on relatively harmless products while ensuring some manufacturing
>standards. One that would distribute the authority to "prescribe" more 
>risky
>products to those people who actually demonstrate a professional facility
>with them (Chinese medicine practitioners, homeopaths, nurses,
>chiropractors, etc.) as appropriate. Just because someone's a physician
>doesn't mean he or she "knows" alternative medicine. It's like any other
>specialty.
>
>
>Peace
>
>Eric
>
>R. Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH
>Instructor Of Nursing
>RN-BS Program Coordinator
>Penn State University, Capital Campus
>777 W. Middletown Pike, Middletown PA 17057
>717-948-6513 red1012 at psu.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
>Of Stephanie Walker
>Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 3:19 PM
>To: NP Info
>Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
>
>Are homeopathic treatments useful other than as a placebo? They are so
>extremely diluted that they must be about 99.999% diluent and on top of
>that, are dosed in minute quantities. There used to not be any research
>supporting their use, but there may be some now that I'm unaware of.
>
>People very badly want alternative remedies but after about 25 years of
>reading about the next great white hope, and various claims for various
>products, and never seeing anything actually pan out all these years, my
>conclusion is that there is no basis for any recommendations for most of
>what's out there. I heard that St. John's wort has a very mild effect for
>mild depression (with major CYP450 enzyme interactions), I recall hearing
>something positive about sam- e, and something about silymarin for liver
>inflammation, but if you have no idea how potent each individual dose or
>product is, that problem seems to cancel out any benefit.
>
>Meanwhile, people are still buying echinacea thinking it prevents colds,
>glucosamine and chondroitin thinking they are arthritis treatments, and
>otherwise throwing money away on useless products.
>This is a rip-off of the consumer.
>
>And if legislation is passed to make the "supplement" drugs comply with the
>same FDA regulations as OTC and Rx do, so that they named and quantified 
>all
>ingredients and had to pass tests of potency, they wouldn't have the same
>mystique for people that they have now. They'd be no different from OTC and
>Rx drugs.
>
>A few years ago I purchased a huge fat book from Prescriber's Letter called
>"Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database" (and boy is it comprehensive).
>Most of the supplements I looked up in there seemed to offer very little to
>justify the price you pay for them.
>
>Stephanie Walker, FNP
>
>On Aug 20, 2008, at 10:08 PM, ROBERT DOERFLER wrote:
>
> > Conrad
> > It sounds interesting. I don't know Daniel personally, nor do I know
> > this course. It sounds like a number of similar surveys of homeopathy
> > that give providers the background to confidently treat milder
> > maladies with an array of common homeopathic remedies. The nice thing
> > about this sort of course (I took a similar one from the New England
> > School in 1993) is that it gets you into the theory behind homeopathy,
> > while also giving one a set of "tools" to use for the sorts of things
> > that patients often want something for, but for which prescription
> > drugs are often inappropriate. Viral infections, sore throats,
> > allergies, beestings, mild poison ivy, sprains and strains, and such
> > are often covered in these courses. At the Beverly Hilton? It'll
> > probably be expensive, so she might want to shop around. But Boiron is
> > a good outfit, and if it's reasonable and she's interested, I bet
> > she'd have fun.
> >
> > As for Alz dz, there's not a whole lot of experience with treating
> > that.
> > Most people don't think of homeopathy, let alone think of it for
> > something as serious as that. There's no trial data, so any such case
> > is a labor of treatment and careful observation...all in the midst of
> > other things, such as concomitant treatment with regular drugs, etc.
> > So it's hard to say what's having an effect. That said, I have treated
> > a couple of cases of dementia of various types and have noted marked
> > cognitive improvements, but I have never had enough follow up with
> > those very few patients to know what the long term outcome was.  The
> > longer the existing problem, the poorer the response; the shorter the
> > symptomatic period, the more robust the response.
> >
> > Peace
> > Eric
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
> > Behalf Of Conrad Rios
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:11 PM
> > To: NP Info
> > Cc: 'NP Info'; npinfo-bounces at nurse.net
> > Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
> >
> > Thanks Robert. I have a PA friend of mine who is also a Homeopath.
> > I know he
> > would understand your explanation better then I. Not to say you did
> > not explain it well but it is a different language for me, and right
> > now I do not have the time.
> > I do have a question, another NP friend of mine who works in Alz
> > dementia care she is thinking about attending a class. See below. Have
> > you heard of it? She works mainly with demented patients and I asked
> > her how she thinks Homeopathy would help with Alz.  Dementia. Do
> > Homeopath address this disease?
> > Thanks.
> > Conrad
> >
> > My name is Daniel Dereser, Pharmacist for Boiron, world leader in
> > Homeopathy.
> >
> > I would like to take the opportunity to discuss with you about the
> > Clinical Homeopathic Training Course for NP in Los Angeles.
> >
> > The CEDH - Continuing Education for the Development of Homeopathy has
> > developed a course that offers practitioners 104 CMEs by the AAFP when
> > they complete the course work of 136 hours. The course is held in Los
> > Angeles at the Beverly Hilton Hotel from November to June, annually.
> >
> > This course is designed for physicians who would like to expand their
> > daily practice and need answers to questions that often come up in
> > today's medical practice.
> >
> > The CEDH - Continuing Education and Development of Homeopathy has 30
> > years experience and is educating over 3,000 physicians in 20
> > countries annually.
> >
> > Conrad J. Rios, NP, PA, MSN
> > Faculty
> > UC Davis, FNP/PA Program
> > 559-281-8211
> >
> > Email: conrad.rios at ucdmc.ucdavis.edu
> > Web: http://fnppa.ucdavis.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > "ROBERT DOERFLER" <redoerfler at verizon.net> Sent by: npinfo-
> > bounces at nurse.net
> > 08/20/2008 02:37 PM
> > Please respond to
> > NP Info <npinfo at nurse.net>
> >
> >
> > To
> > "'NP Info'" <npinfo at nurse.net>
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> > RE: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ok, I'll give this a go...
> > I am a homeopath, and we look at disease not as "How do lump this
> > patient into a diagnostic category?" rather as "What is unique about
> > this patient?"
> > We see symptoms--even specific diseases--not as just categorical
> > problems, but as maifestations of the essential "imbalance" of a
> > system that keeps everything working together.
> >
> > When taking a case, we work with symptom rubrics, under which are
> > listed various homeopathic remedies associated with that symptom. The
> > symptom GENERALS - ANEMIA, lists 183 remedies known to be associated
> > with anemic patients. The symptom GENERALS - FOOD and DRINKS - ice -
> > desire, lists 16 remedies. I noticed from Kimberly's references that
> > not all anemic patients crave ice, thus we'll consider the
> > intersection of those 2 sets, which includes only 9 remedies. (Many
> > anemic patients DON'T crave ice, etc.)
> >
> > Calcarea carbonica: deficient in the metabolism of structure, they
> > often crave foods or ingestants with "structure" such as starches,
> > indigestible mineral substances (as in ordinary pica), cheese/dairy,
> > etc. Calc carb patients often suffer from hemorrhagic problems, and
> > uterine fibroids in women are an especially common complaint that
> > might prompt a selection of this remedy.
> >
> > Phosphorus: imbalances related to fluid dynamics, these patients are
> > often "open"--having boundary issues--and are often anxious. Fluid
> > discharges (such as loose stools, nosebleeds, metrorrhagia, etc.) are
> > a key feature of Phos pts.
> >
> > Veratrum album (white hellebore): again, fluid dynamics, but with a
> > mental picture that is more hyperactive than anxious. These people
> > often "go from both ends" in gastroenteritis, and hellebore poisoning
> > is associated with a dysenteric type of diarrhea with nausea/vomiting
> > (much of what informs homeopathy is based on toxicology, since the
> > treatment principle is "like cures like").
> >
> > Mercurius corrosivus (mercuric chloride): mucus membranes that "burn
> > like fire", it is a remedy that is often helpful in ulcerative
> > colitis, Crohn's disease, and other ulcerative conditions.
> >
> > These are just a sample of 4 remedies, but one can see how this view
> > of disease and the symptoms (such as chewing ice) they manifest may
> > make more sense. So is there a physiological cause across the board?
> > Maybe.
> > Maybe
> > not.
> > Maybe the cause arises from a behavioral drive (as in Calc carb), an
> > amelioration of a pain (ice soothing "hot" membranes--as in the
> > glossitis example in one of Kimberly's references), cooling/fluid
> > replacement (as in Phos. Or Veratrum), and so on--or maybe we don't
> > know in certain specific cases. But it provides a fascinating
> > alternate way to view patient complaints.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > R. Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH
> > Instructor Of Nursing
> > RN-BS Program Coordinator
> > Penn State University, Capital Campus
> > 777 W. Middletown Pike, Middletown PA 17057
> > 717-948-6513 red1012 at psu.edu
> >
> > Certified in Adult Primary Care & Classical Homeopathy
> > 1521 Cedar Cliff Drive, Suite 203
> > Camp Hill PA 17011
> > 717-761-6902
> > http://www.altmedresearch.us
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
> > Behalf Of Kimberly Coleman
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:52 PM
> > To: NP Info
> > Subject: Re: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
> >
> > Thanks Priscilla.  I had also googled it and really couldn't come up
> > with a conclusive "why".  I appreciate the links.
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Priscilla Merrill
> >   To: 'NP Info'
> >   Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:28 AM
> >   Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
> >
> >
> >   You got my curiosity up so I googled it and here are some links.
> >   Made me wonder if Vanilla Ice was anemic since he's so darn pale!
> >   Bottom line, no one knows, just theories.  I thoguth it might be the
> > iron in
> >   the pipes but then water shoud also be a craving.  The best answer I
> > saw was
> >   that it has oxygen in it from the freezing process.  Here are some
> > ideas.
> >
> >   http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chewing-ice/AN01278
> >
> >   http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2004/11/i-eat-lot-of-ice.html
> >
> >   http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060616173903AAE8Jhc
> >
> >   Priscilla Merrill FNP
> >
> >
> >
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
> > Behalf
> >   Of Kimberly Coleman
> >   Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:56 PM
> >   To: NP Info
> >   Subject: [NPInfo] Iron Deficiency Anemia
> >
> >   I was curious if anyone could tell me WHY? patients with iron
> > deficiency
> >   anemia crave ice.  I know it's a form of PICA and can only find
> > general
> >   information.  A pt. with low H&H (10, 30), low B12 (207), low
> > ferritin (7),
> >   norm. TSH.  The MD didn't want to do a TIBC (it wasn't needed right
> > now).
> >   There is no hx. of abn. bleeding, had TAH >10yrs. C/O "eating a lot
> > of ice",
> >   extreme fatigue/weakness and "a lot of joint pain and feels like
> > muscles are
> >   drawing and stumbling".  Going to be scheduling upper/lower scopes.
> > Any
> >   suggestions on the joint pain and stumbling, and what does ice have
> > to do
> >   with it?  As I said, I have heard of it, know it exists, but don't
> > know
> >   exactly why.  Thanks.  KC
> >   _______________________________________________
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