[NPInfo] AMA News
Margienp at aol.com
Margienp at aol.com
Wed Jun 11 06:36:30 PDT 2008
What next?
WELL I WAS told before I researched this that I could teach with the DNP.
THIS IS WHY I AM BRINGING IT to the attention, and for discussion.
So I therefore may want to teach when I am very old, the DNP will not help
me since I am one of the OLD MSN's who have many years of experience.
But then who cares about us. Throw us aware and have all bridge nurses, take
care of us!
In a message dated 6/11/2008 9:11:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
galdena at sbcglobal.net writes:
This will probably be true for DNPs who want to go into teaching but that's
NOT what this degree is for in the first place!! This is SUPPOSED to be a
clinical doctorate for NPs, not for those who are in academia. The whole
premise behind the DNP is that it is NOT research focused which is what is
needed for tenure in academic institutions. My biggest fear is that, in the
quest for tuition moneys from DNP students, programs will (and already are
in some cases) admitting and graduating non-NP MSN prepared nurses... in my
class we had nurse anesthetists, CNSs, a CNM, and administrators, and some
educators-- all seeking a degree that was developed specifically for
clinically-based NPs. This not only bastardizes the program from the very
beginning and steers it away from it's main objective but, if DNPs in
education find that they can’t be tenured because of their lack of pure
research, guess what's going to happen?? In the quest for tuition moneys
from DNP students, the curriculums will change and become more research
focused-- again steering away from the main purpose. That's exactly what
happened with the DNSc degree-- it was originally meant to be the clinical
doctorate but, instead, morphed into being almost identical to the PhD and
research focused.
The 2 year bridging DNP programs are much more attractive to those seeking a
doctorate than a 4 year PhD program-- and everyone seems to want the fast
track... but the curriculum is much different. The DNP will be considered
ENTRY-level for NPs-- it is NOT considered a terminal degree. I have already
heard thoughts on possibly developing bridging programs for DNPs to PhDs
being discussed. For goodness sakes.............
Dena Galler
-----Original Message-----
From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
Of Margienp at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 3:22 AM
To: npinfo at nurse.net
Subject: Re: [NPInfo] AMA News
I just read that DNP's, can not be tenured . They are considered a second
class to the PHD.HMM...
So I want to spend money on a degree for what????
Margie
Again I am tired of academia telling me what to do. Come work in the
trenches for a while.
In a message dated 6/10/2008 11:22:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rosemorankelly at gmail.com writes:
This reply comes from Dr Galler...am I correct? and thank you. I do not
wish to take a test administered by MDs...Rose
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Dena <galdena at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> WHAT'S LEFT TO ARGUE???? The whole purpose of this exam!! The fact that a
> non-NP nursing academia type and medical associations are pushing for it
> for
> their own agendas. The fact that this test is for DNP NPs only and
further
> separates the profession by alienating the MSN prepared NP. That the
> bridging NP programs generally don't contain any clinical components to
> them
> so what exactly are we testing??? I already proved my competency in the
> clinical arena by taking the ANCC FNP certification exam after my MSN
> program. That the certifying bodies stand to make a lot more money off of
> us
> by pushing this additional exam. And the fact that no other EDUCATIONAL
> DEGREE needs a certification exam to prove they deserve their doctoral
> degrees (PhD, DNSc, etc). No one can HONESTLY believe that if we pass
this
> little new exam that MDs will finally accept us as equal colleagues. OH
NO!
> They will always find something else to throw in our faces because they
> don't WANT us as equal colleagues. I think THAT little list sums up MY
> opposition for it. I think we should all band together and boycott this
> stupid additional hoop someone has decided we should jump through.
Nursing
> had had us jumping through additional hoops for years... and now others
are
> going to tell us to jump further, higher, and more? Enough is enough. I'm
> %*#@#$* done!
> Dena Galler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
Behalf
> Of brocsanche at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:54 PM
> To: peg at fhea.com; npinfo at nurse.net
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] AMA News
>
> I'm already signed up to take the exam. I personally think it's a great
> idea. If we all take the exam and can demonstrate that we are comparable
to
> physicians (since we pass similar exams) then what's left to their
> argument?
>
>
> Broc Enrique Ramón de Peña Sánchez
> DNP, NEA-BC, PMH-CNS-BC, PMHNP-BC, FNP-BC, FNP-C
> 9331 East Lake Highlands Drive
> Dallas, Texas 75218-2723
> Work Email: Broc.Sanchez at va.gov
> Cell (972) 859-9934
> Home (214) 328-8378
> Home Email: ExecPsySvs at aol.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margaret A. Fitzgerald, DNP, NP-C, FNP-BC, FAANP, CSP
> <pegf at hotmail.com>
> To: NP Info <npinfo at nurse.net>
> Sent: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 8:08 pm
> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] AMA News
>
>
>
> OK- Anyone on list with a DNP planning on taking the exam?
> Dr. Margaret A. Fitzgerald, DNP, FNP-BC, NP-C, FAANP, CSP
> resident, Fitzgerald Health Education Associates, Inc.
> 5 Flagship Drive
> orth Andover, MA 01845-6154
> 78.794.8366
> FHEA website www.fhea.com
> HEA on line store www.fhea.biz
> peg at fhea.com
> FNP, Adjunct Faculty, Family Practice Residency
> reater Lawrence (MA) Family Health Center, Inc.
>
> From: galdena at sbcglobal.net
> To: npinfo at nurse.net
> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] AMA News
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:24:51 -0700
>
> I also find it amusing that MDs are apparently just nervous about the
DNP
> degree... have they expressed the same sentiments about NPs in the
> clinical
> setting with PhDs or DNSc? Plus do THOSE doctorally prepared NPs have to
> take another credentialing exam? Also the latest on the movement by the
> AMA
> to limit the title "Dr" in a healthcare setting to only MD/DOs,
dentists,
> and podiatrists, leaves out doctorally prepared PT/OTs, chiropractors
> (understandable given the long history of turf wars between MD/DOs and
> chiropractors), and to psychologists as well! Now THAT'S not going to
sit
> well with everyone, is it <G>?
> Dena Galler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On
> Behalf
> Of AnnMarie Roetzer
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:09 PM
> To: NP Info
> Subject: Re: [NPInfo] AMA News
>
> I even find the tone of the initial article condescending. When are
they
> going to get it... I don't want to provide the same care of a physician,
I
> want to provide my own type of care which is a fusion of medicine and
> nursing as well. I provide caring compassionate well-informed care which
> is
> much appreciated by my patients. I take the time to make sure that
their
> needs are met.
>
> Futhermore, it is obvious that this NP in the article must not practice
> independently as they "allow her" full prescriptive authority and when
she
> is in the office they "feel free" to do hospital rounds or take a day
off.
> How condescending!
>
> I got into a big argument after interviewing a new nurse the other day
> with the nursing supervisor. The nurse works in a jail and see patients
> according to protocols -- the nursing supervisor said "well its similar
to
> what you do as an nurse practitioner and that takes critical thinking" I
> was
> furious I replied that it is not similar -- and where are my standard
> protocols. I also heard one of the front desk staff telling a patient
that
> I
> "work under" Dr. So and So, well needless to say there was some
education
> provided that in fact work "in collaboration with" the physicians -- his
> reply, well same difference you know what I meant.
>
> My last question, why are nurse anesthestists having the turf battles
and
> drama -- they seem to be well-accepted and I never hear someone say
"well
> thats just the nurse anesthestist NOT the doctor." Maybe we should study
> their model... seems to working better.
>
> Its a shame to see everything that we have worked for --- just be
> trashed.
>
> Ok my rant is over -- I rarely pipe in on these issues, but I am
steamed
> now...
>
> Take care,
> AnnMarie
>
> David Mittman <dmittman at comcast.net> wrote:
> This is all such BS but the people at Columbia may by their mistakes
> still positively push on the envelope. This remains to be seen. Where
> doesw this place :PAs and NPs who don't want to play in this?
> Dave
> ???
>
> PROFESSIONAL ISSUES
>
> Medical testing board to introduce doctor of nursing certification
>
> Physicians are concerned that the move will lead to scope-of-practice
> expansions.
>
> By Myrle Croasdale, AMNews staff. June 16, 2008.
>
> Starting this fall, doctor of nursing practice graduates will be able
> to take a certification test that proponents say will set a national
> standard for DNPs and add to the profession's credibility.
>
> The voluntary test, being created by the National Board of Medical
> Examiners, is based on the medical licensing exam. It will be offered
> at a time of growing momentum in the DNP movement: About 200 nursing
> schools are expected to offer the two-year DNP degree by 2015 -- more
> than double the programs available today.
>
> Discuss on Sermo
> ???
>
> The making of "Dr. Nurse"
> See related content
> Test proponents said the DNPs, called "doctor nurses" by some in the
> nursing profession, are comparable with primary care physicians in
> their diagnostic and disease-management skills.
>
> But physicians expressed concerns that DNPs will use the test as
> leverage to seek scope-of-practice expansions that cross into medical
> practice.
>
> "Why would they get a DNP unless they want to do things that are
> currently not in the nursing scope of practice in most states?" asked
> AMA Board of Trustees Secretary William A. Hazel Jr., MD. "It makes
> sense they will want to change their scope."
>
> The AMA and the American Academy of Family Physicians said they
> support advances in nursing education but emphasized that nurses
> should operate as part of a health care team under physician
> supervision. Dr. Hazel said there are important distinctions between
> DNPs and physicians that the public should understand.
>
> "I do not want to be construed as attacking nurses, but there are
> concerns," Dr. Hazel said. "There's a difference in training that
> should not be overlooked."
>
> In April, the nonprofit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive
> Care contracted with the NBME to create the exam, which is expected
> to be offered in November.
>
> Mary Mundinger, DrPH, speaking for the council, said the goal is for
> a national standard that distinguishes DNPs who have an advanced
> clinical knowledge from those who have an emphasis in research,
> administration or systems management.
>
> "While a primary care physician went to medical school and did
> residency, a nurse practitioner with a DNP has achieved many of the
> same competencies but through nursing education," said Mundinger, who
> also is dean of Columbia University School of Nursing in New York
> City. "They have the same skills in identifying a disease state and
> treating it, but it's a different hybrid of care."
>
> Using a similar test
>
> Richard Hawkins, MD, NBME vice president for assessment programs,
> said the test will be based on Step 3 of the U.S. Medical Licensing
> Exam, the last level in the test series.
>
> "We're a testing organization, and this fit our mission," said Dr.
> Hawkins. The NMBE develops assessments for health care professionals
> in general, not just for physicians.
>
> Mundinger said about 75 graduates qualify to take the DNP
> certification test. Once nursing schools finish their program
> expansions, she expects there will be at least 2,000 DNPs graduating
> each year. Candidates must first complete a master's-level nurse
> practitioner degree before they begin a DNP program.
>
> Though DNPs have a year of residency as part of their two-year
> program, Dr. Hazel said, it is important to recognize the difference
> between physicians' and nurses' residencies.
>
> Residency, DNP style
>
> DNPs' residency year entails 1,000 hours, Dr. Hazel said. Medical
> residents work 80 hours a week, racking up about 4,000 hours their
> first year and approximately 12,000 hours over three years, he added.
> In addition, patients could easily confuse these nurses with a
> licensed physician.
>
> "Let's make sure they make the distinction between a doctor of
> nursing and medical doctor," Dr. Hazel said.
>
> At press time in early June, the AMA House of Delegates was expected
> to consider a resolution to endorse policy that the title "doctor" be
> used only by licensed physicians, dentists and podiatrists in a
> medical setting. The resolution also sought to have the title
> "resident" apply only to individuals enrolled in a medical, dental or
> podiatry training program.
>
> Another resolution sought to oppose the NBME's development of the
> certification test and to urge the Association to adopt policy that
> DNPs practice under physician supervision.
>
> AAFP President James King, MD, said that although these nurses pass a
> test similar to the one for medical school graduates, that does not
> make them physicians.
>
> "I don't think they can replace family physicians," Dr. King said.
>
> "If they are sincere in saying they are going to contribute to easing
> the physician work force shortage, they'll work as part of a team,
> not leading that team," he said.
>
> Mundinger said the nursing degree and test do not alter existing
> scope-of-practice rules, but as DNPs demonstrate their expertise, she
> expects that scope to change.
>
> "The more nurses prove they can do certain things, the more likely it
> is legislation will follow, but there is no direct link between
> certification and what nurses [legally] can do," Mundinger said.
>
> Working with physicians
>
> Richard Mulder, MD, is a family physician in Ivanhoe, Minn., who has
> worked with Dawn Bucher, DNP, since she was a registered nurse and
> then a nurse practitioner. He said her level of expertise as a DNP
> has eased his workload.
>
> On days she works, he feels free to do hospital rounds or take a
> coveted day off.
>
> He is confident that patients will be well taken care of by Bucher.
> He and his partner set her prescribing formulary and have given her
> unrestricted prescribing authority.
>
> Bucher said the biggest impact her DNP degree has had is how she
> thinks about patient care. She looks for ways to better meet
> patients' needs and coordinate their care.
>
> "We're all about patient care," she said.
>
> Bucher does not introduce herself as doctor. When the voluntary DNP
> certification test is available, she plans to take it.
>
>
> ???
> Discuss on Sermo
> Back to top.
>
>
>
>
> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
>
> The making of "Dr. Nurse"
>
> The doctor of nursing practice degree is a two-year program open only
> to those who hold a master's degree in advanced-practice nursing. New
> York's Columbia University School of Nursing, one of the schools
> offering this degree, has a 40-credit-hour curriculum that includes a
> year-long residency.
>
> 1. Support core courses (19 credit hours):
>
> Translation and synthesis of evidence for optimal outcomes
> Quantitative research methods
> Legal and ethical issues
> Clinical genomics advanced seminar
> Practice management
> Informatics
> 2. Clinical core courses (11 credit hours):
>
> Doctor of nursing practice I and IIv
> Didacting and clinical
> Chronic illness management.
> Doctor of nursing practice I and II
> Didactic and clinical
> Chronic illness management
> 3. Residency/seminar (10 credit hours)
>
> Source: Columbia University School of Nursing
>
> Back to top.
>
>
> Copyright 2008 American Medical Association. All rights reserved.
>
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