[NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?

Mon Jun 23 19:00:56 PDT 2008

Wow, I just received IRB approval too! Will be looking to enroll a few folks
this summer. Best, E 

-----Original Message-----
From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
Of Ted Rigney
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 12:24 PM
To: NP Info
Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?

Eric,
I can't say that I disagree with your fear of the consequences of gov't
intercession. There are, after all, historical examples of what seemed to be
an innocuous step by a government body having diasterous results down the
line for personal rights/freedoms.

Also, I completely agree we shouldn't shower the people involved with too
much disdain since, as you comment, we weren't there. 
TedPS. On a personal note- good luck to you, too! Where are you in the
process? I just received IRB approval for my study, so I should be (knock on
wood) collecting data soon.

> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:57:54 -0400> From: redoerfler at verizon.net> 
> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?> To: 
> npinfo at nurse.net> > Ted> I agree with you in your analysis of the 
> consequences of this sect--and it's> one of the reasons I don't care 
> for organized religion at all! It can get> nutso! In any free society, 
> there will be social experiments that go> horribly awry, but I am 
> leary of a court-enforced version of acceptability,> as in the case in 
> China, for example. You argue that it's a long way down> that 
> "slippery slope" and I can't say I completely disagree. I have little> 
> doubt that this kid felt pressure to conform, and frankly won't be 
> quaking> in my democratic boots if the parents DO get prosecuted. On 
> the other hand,> I think we owe due caution in this line of thinking: 
> It's amazing how fast> things can change. And I think we need to 
> exercise some restraint when it> comes to opprobrium, since after all, 
> we weren't there. Maybe it's a better> thing to just draw a sharp line 
> down the 18-year mark, and let the state> have sway when the person is 
> under 18. > Eric> > PS: I see you're a "c" too. Good luck!> E> > R. 
> Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH> Instructor Of Nursing> RN-BS Program 
> Coordinator> Penn State University, Capital Campus> 777 W. Middletown 
> Pike, Middletown PA 17057> 717-948-6513 red1012 at psu.edu> > > 
> -----Original Message-----> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net 
> [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> Of Ted Rigney> Sent: 
> Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:50 PM> To: NP Info> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] 
> Should teens be allowed to do this?> > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 22 Jun 
> 2008 16:50:10 -0400> From: redoerfler at verizon.net>> Subject: RE: 
> [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?> To:> npinfo at nurse.net> > 
> Have been following this thread a bit since I got back> (to email). It 
> seems> like most people on the list are pretty angry about> this. 
> Truth is, I think> most religion tends to get people into this sort 
> of> hot water, eventually.> In fact, I'm no fan of any religion.> > On 
> the other> hand, I think it's pretty glib to suggest that a 
> 16-year-old> isn't capable> of having a valid opinion about life and 
> death--and the depth> of religious> faith. We in health care 
> (physicians, nurses) who have so much> power over> people in life, 
> seem offended when they choose death, if WE think> the death> is 
> unnecessary. If it's terminal cancer, we're ok with it: "He> gave it 
> his> best shot...." But if something like this uremic kid, and it's a> 
> choice> grounded in a discipline of faith then it somehow conflicts 
> with our>> ideals, and then it's a "bad choice" and somebody has to be 
> punished.> >> Hmm...> > Several noted authors have commented on the 
> ethics of minors'> medical/health> decisions. A survey of these 
> suggests that this young fellow> may well have> been capable of 
> assent--agreeing to care (or...not). While I> would certainly> exhaust 
> every gentle attempt to change his mind and the> minds of his> 
> community, I don't think I would castigate them if they> allowed him 
> his> wishes. (Apparently the Oregon Legislature thought so too.)> 
> Personally, I> think such belief is bizarre. But I am an American, and 
> while> our society> has a duty to protect children, the line between 
> minority and> majority age> isn't reallt that sharp: I'd prefer us to 
> err on the side> respecting> personal freedom. From what I've read, 
> his community was doing> so. > > The alternative is--potentially--an 
> escalating intrusion into> private> affairs. I didn't get into this 
> business to act as such an agent.> If I> misunderstood something about 
> this case, I would maintain my argument> in its> general sense. > 
> e.d.> > R. Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH>> Instructor Of Nursing> 
> RN-BS Program Coordinator> Penn State University,> Capital Campus> 777 
> W. Middletown Pike, Middletown PA 17057>> 717-948-6513 
> red1012 at psu.edu> > > -----Original Message-----> From:> 
> npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> 
> Of> David Mittman> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:29 PM> To: ACC; 
> NPinfo Info;> PAForum at mc.duke.edu> Subject: [NPInfo] Should teens be 
> allowed to do this?>> > Autopsy: Easy treatment for teen who died in 
> failed 'faith healing'> > >> 01:57 PM PDT on Wednesday, June 18, 2008> 
> > > By NICK BRADSHAW and ANTONIA> GIEDWOYN, kgw.com Staff> > 
> GLADSTONE, Ore. -- A 16-year-old member of a> faith healing church 
> died of> uremic heart failure caused by a stricture in> his urinary 
> tract, according> to autopsy results.> > The urinary tract> condition 
> could have been fixed with a catheter, said Dr.> Cliff Nelson, the> 
> state Medical Examiner. The outpatient procedure is> routine.> > Teen 
> member> of faith healing church found dead> > > Instead, 16-year-old 
> Neal Beagley's> urinary tract became inflamed and closed> off. He was 
> unable to urinate,> which made his bladder and kidneys stop> 
> functioning, the autopsy showed.> Toxins backed up into his blood 
> stream.> > > > Beagley had started> complaining about stomach aches 
> and shortness of breath> last week. The> family told police he did not 
> want medical attention.> > > > Gladstone> police said relatives and 
> church members told them the teenager> refused> treatment for the 
> illness, as he was entitled to do under Oregon> law.> > >> > Officers 
> and a deputy medical examiner were called to the family's house>> 
> about an hour after the boy's death late Tuesday afternoon, said Sgt. 
> Lynne>> Benton of the Gladstone Police Department.> > > > The Major 
> Crimes Team> responded to the scene to investigate.> > > > Benton said 
> the teen's family> was with him when he died.> > > > Like all members 
> of the religious order,> Beagley did not receive medical> care. His 
> condition worsened Sunday and> members of the church gathered for> 
> prayer, Benton said.> > > > The family> belongs to the Oregon City 
> Followers of Christ Church. The church> is a> fundamentalist Christian 
> denomination that recently made headlines> after> two members were 
> arrested and accused of using prayer instead of> medical> care to try 
> to cure their deathly ill daughter.> > > > Second death at> church in 
> recent months> > In March, the boy's 15-month-old cousin, Ava> 
> Worthington, died at home from> bronchial pneumonia and a blood 
> infection.>> > > > Her parents, Carl and Raylene Worthington, also 
> failed to contact a> doctor> and are awaiting trial on criminal 
> charges in her death.> >> Background: Couple arrested in faith healing 
> death> > > > No one had been> arrested or charged with any crime in 
> the latest case as of> Wednesday> morning, but the information will be 
> forwarded to the Clackamas> County> District Attorney's Office for 
> review, Benton said.> > > > Oregon lawmakers> passed new laws striking 
> down legal shields for> faith-healing parents after> several children 
> from the Followers of Christ> church died in the 1990s.> >> > > The 
> Oregon City church is not associated with a mainstream> denomination.> 
> > > > AP contributed to this>> 
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> *****************************> Hi all,> I think the conversation we 
> are having on this listserv illustrates how> complex this issue really 
> is for some.> > What is not complex (for me anyway) is to think about 
> this poor boy and how> horrible he must have been feeling in the last 
> days of his life when he> couldn't urinate. How long does it take one 
> to die of uremic heart failure> due to an obstructed urethra? I don't 
> know, but at least a week, according> to the article by Bradshaw and 
> Giedwoyn. I imagine this must have been a> very painful and 
> distressing way to die. In fact, it sounds like torture to> me.> > I 
> agree with much of what Eric wrote. However, I do take exception with 
> a> couple of things. First, I am not distressed about this case 
> because of my> own thoughts about death and when it is appropriate to 
> die- that has nothing> to do with this at all. > > I agree that a 
> 16-year-old is capable of having an opinion about life and> death and 
> that he can have a desire to demonstrate the depth of his> religious 
> faith in certain ways. However, when I get uncomfortable with this> is 
> when I think about the kind of life this adolescent probably led up 
> to> this point. The little I read about the Followers of Christ- 
> Oregon Church> describes the sect as one where its members isolate 
> themselves from society,> "shun" other sect members for breaking the 
> rules, and, other than attending> public school, children have no 
> contact with outside society at all. > Can anyone really think that 
> this boy, 16-years-old, scared, in pain, and> surrounded by family and 
> community members who can "shun" him if he asks for> help, is able to 
> make a reasoned decision for himself? I think this would be> difficult 
> for an adult to do; almost impossible for an adolescent.> In addition, 
> I cannot imagine that I am the first to note that the> authorities did 
> not arrive at the boy's home until after he was dead. We> have no way 
> of knowing what this boy's desires truly were as he was dying.> > Just 
> like Eric, I am an American and I want to protect personal freedom,> 
> too, but I also want to advocate for those among us who are 
> vulnerable. I> also agree with Eric that the line between minority and 
> majority is blurry.> However, I want to err on the side of saving 
> lives and letting the courts> figure it out later.> > Personally, I 
> think it's too large a step to go from stopping a completely> 
> unnecessary death in a healthy 16-year old and "escalating intrusion 
> into> private affairs."> > At the end of the day, my thoughts and 
> prayers will be for that poor boy and> what he must have endured in 
> his last days of life- all unnecessary. > > Ted Rigney PhD(c), RNP, 
> ACNP-BC, FAANP> Assistant Director Nurse Practitioner Program 
> University of Arizona College> of Nursing> 
> trigney at nursing.arizona.edu___________________________________________
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