[NPInfo] study
ROBERT DOERFLER
redoerfler at verizon.net
Mon Jun 23 19:01:29 PDT 2008
PS, what's your topc/research?
e
-----Original Message-----
From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf
Of Ted Rigney
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 12:24 PM
To: NP Info
Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?
Eric,
I can't say that I disagree with your fear of the consequences of gov't
intercession. There are, after all, historical examples of what seemed to be
an innocuous step by a government body having diasterous results down the
line for personal rights/freedoms.
Also, I completely agree we shouldn't shower the people involved with too
much disdain since, as you comment, we weren't there.
TedPS. On a personal note- good luck to you, too! Where are you in the
process? I just received IRB approval for my study, so I should be (knock on
wood) collecting data soon.
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:57:54 -0400> From: redoerfler at verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?> To:
> npinfo at nurse.net> > Ted> I agree with you in your analysis of the
> consequences of this sect--and it's> one of the reasons I don't care
> for organized religion at all! It can get> nutso! In any free society,
> there will be social experiments that go> horribly awry, but I am
> leary of a court-enforced version of acceptability,> as in the case in
> China, for example. You argue that it's a long way down> that
> "slippery slope" and I can't say I completely disagree. I have little>
> doubt that this kid felt pressure to conform, and frankly won't be
> quaking> in my democratic boots if the parents DO get prosecuted. On
> the other hand,> I think we owe due caution in this line of thinking:
> It's amazing how fast> things can change. And I think we need to
> exercise some restraint when it> comes to opprobrium, since after all,
> we weren't there. Maybe it's a better> thing to just draw a sharp line
> down the 18-year mark, and let the state> have sway when the person is
> under 18. > Eric> > PS: I see you're a "c" too. Good luck!> E> > R.
> Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH> Instructor Of Nursing> RN-BS Program
> Coordinator> Penn State University, Capital Campus> 777 W. Middletown
> Pike, Middletown PA 17057> 717-948-6513 red1012 at psu.edu> > >
> -----Original Message-----> From: npinfo-bounces at nurse.net
> [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf> Of Ted Rigney> Sent:
> Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:50 PM> To: NP Info> Subject: RE: [NPInfo]
> Should teens be allowed to do this?> > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 22 Jun
> 2008 16:50:10 -0400> From: redoerfler at verizon.net>> Subject: RE:
> [NPInfo] Should teens be allowed to do this?> To:> npinfo at nurse.net> >
> Have been following this thread a bit since I got back> (to email). It
> seems> like most people on the list are pretty angry about> this.
> Truth is, I think> most religion tends to get people into this sort
> of> hot water, eventually.> In fact, I'm no fan of any religion.> > On
> the other> hand, I think it's pretty glib to suggest that a
> 16-year-old> isn't capable> of having a valid opinion about life and
> death--and the depth> of religious> faith. We in health care
> (physicians, nurses) who have so much> power over> people in life,
> seem offended when they choose death, if WE think> the death> is
> unnecessary. If it's terminal cancer, we're ok with it: "He> gave it
> his> best shot...." But if something like this uremic kid, and it's a>
> choice> grounded in a discipline of faith then it somehow conflicts
> with our>> ideals, and then it's a "bad choice" and somebody has to be
> punished.> >> Hmm...> > Several noted authors have commented on the
> ethics of minors'> medical/health> decisions. A survey of these
> suggests that this young fellow> may well have> been capable of
> assent--agreeing to care (or...not). While I> would certainly> exhaust
> every gentle attempt to change his mind and the> minds of his>
> community, I don't think I would castigate them if they> allowed him
> his> wishes. (Apparently the Oregon Legislature thought so too.)>
> Personally, I> think such belief is bizarre. But I am an American, and
> while> our society> has a duty to protect children, the line between
> minority and> majority age> isn't reallt that sharp: I'd prefer us to
> err on the side> respecting> personal freedom. From what I've read,
> his community was doing> so. > > The alternative is--potentially--an
> escalating intrusion into> private> affairs. I didn't get into this
> business to act as such an agent.> If I> misunderstood something about
> this case, I would maintain my argument> in its> general sense. >
> e.d.> > R. Eric Doerfler, CRNP, PhD(c), CCH>> Instructor Of Nursing>
> RN-BS Program Coordinator> Penn State University,> Capital Campus> 777
> W. Middletown Pike, Middletown PA 17057>> 717-948-6513
> red1012 at psu.edu> > > -----Original Message-----> From:>
> npinfo-bounces at nurse.net [mailto:npinfo-bounces at nurse.net] On Behalf>
> Of> David Mittman> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:29 PM> To: ACC;
> NPinfo Info;> PAForum at mc.duke.edu> Subject: [NPInfo] Should teens be
> allowed to do this?>> > Autopsy: Easy treatment for teen who died in
> failed 'faith healing'> > >> 01:57 PM PDT on Wednesday, June 18, 2008>
> > > By NICK BRADSHAW and ANTONIA> GIEDWOYN, kgw.com Staff> >
> GLADSTONE, Ore. -- A 16-year-old member of a> faith healing church
> died of> uremic heart failure caused by a stricture in> his urinary
> tract, according> to autopsy results.> > The urinary tract> condition
> could have been fixed with a catheter, said Dr.> Cliff Nelson, the>
> state Medical Examiner. The outpatient procedure is> routine.> > Teen
> member> of faith healing church found dead> > > Instead, 16-year-old
> Neal Beagley's> urinary tract became inflamed and closed> off. He was
> unable to urinate,> which made his bladder and kidneys stop>
> functioning, the autopsy showed.> Toxins backed up into his blood
> stream.> > > > Beagley had started> complaining about stomach aches
> and shortness of breath> last week. The> family told police he did not
> want medical attention.> > > > Gladstone> police said relatives and
> church members told them the teenager> refused> treatment for the
> illness, as he was entitled to do under Oregon> law.> > >> > Officers
> and a deputy medical examiner were called to the family's house>>
> about an hour after the boy's death late Tuesday afternoon, said Sgt.
> Lynne>> Benton of the Gladstone Police Department.> > > > The Major
> Crimes Team> responded to the scene to investigate.> > > > Benton said
> the teen's family> was with him when he died.> > > > Like all members
> of the religious order,> Beagley did not receive medical> care. His
> condition worsened Sunday and> members of the church gathered for>
> prayer, Benton said.> > > > The family> belongs to the Oregon City
> Followers of Christ Church. The church> is a> fundamentalist Christian
> denomination that recently made headlines> after> two members were
> arrested and accused of using prayer instead of> medical> care to try
> to cure their deathly ill daughter.> > > > Second death at> church in
> recent months> > In March, the boy's 15-month-old cousin, Ava>
> Worthington, died at home from> bronchial pneumonia and a blood
> infection.>> > > > Her parents, Carl and Raylene Worthington, also
> failed to contact a> doctor> and are awaiting trial on criminal
> charges in her death.> >> Background: Couple arrested in faith healing
> death> > > > No one had been> arrested or charged with any crime in
> the latest case as of> Wednesday> morning, but the information will be
> forwarded to the Clackamas> County> District Attorney's Office for
> review, Benton said.> > > > Oregon lawmakers> passed new laws striking
> down legal shields for> faith-healing parents after> several children
> from the Followers of Christ> church died in the 1990s.> >> > > The
> Oregon City church is not associated with a mainstream> denomination.>
> > > > AP contributed to this>>
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> *****************************> Hi all,> I think the conversation we
> are having on this listserv illustrates how> complex this issue really
> is for some.> > What is not complex (for me anyway) is to think about
> this poor boy and how> horrible he must have been feeling in the last
> days of his life when he> couldn't urinate. How long does it take one
> to die of uremic heart failure> due to an obstructed urethra? I don't
> know, but at least a week, according> to the article by Bradshaw and
> Giedwoyn. I imagine this must have been a> very painful and
> distressing way to die. In fact, it sounds like torture to> me.> > I
> agree with much of what Eric wrote. However, I do take exception with
> a> couple of things. First, I am not distressed about this case
> because of my> own thoughts about death and when it is appropriate to
> die- that has nothing> to do with this at all. > > I agree that a
> 16-year-old is capable of having an opinion about life and> death and
> that he can have a desire to demonstrate the depth of his> religious
> faith in certain ways. However, when I get uncomfortable with this> is
> when I think about the kind of life this adolescent probably led up
> to> this point. The little I read about the Followers of Christ-
> Oregon Church> describes the sect as one where its members isolate
> themselves from society,> "shun" other sect members for breaking the
> rules, and, other than attending> public school, children have no
> contact with outside society at all. > Can anyone really think that
> this boy, 16-years-old, scared, in pain, and> surrounded by family and
> community members who can "shun" him if he asks for> help, is able to
> make a reasoned decision for himself? I think this would be> difficult
> for an adult to do; almost impossible for an adolescent.> In addition,
> I cannot imagine that I am the first to note that the> authorities did
> not arrive at the boy's home until after he was dead. We> have no way
> of knowing what this boy's desires truly were as he was dying.> > Just
> like Eric, I am an American and I want to protect personal freedom,>
> too, but I also want to advocate for those among us who are
> vulnerable. I> also agree with Eric that the line between minority and
> majority is blurry.> However, I want to err on the side of saving
> lives and letting the courts> figure it out later.> > Personally, I
> think it's too large a step to go from stopping a completely>
> unnecessary death in a healthy 16-year old and "escalating intrusion
> into> private affairs."> > At the end of the day, my thoughts and
> prayers will be for that poor boy and> what he must have endured in
> his last days of life- all unnecessary. > > Ted Rigney PhD(c), RNP,
> ACNP-BC, FAANP> Assistant Director Nurse Practitioner Program
> University of Arizona College> of Nursing>
> trigney at nursing.arizona.edu___________________________________________
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